Consider Charles Baldwin words.

[Tallen]

See what he says HERE (http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2008/cbarchive_20081010.html).

I like this fellow, he is talking the things that would truly be a change.

[TigerBunny]

See what he says HERE (http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2008/cbarchive_20081010.html).

I like this fellow, he is talking the things that would truly be a change.

Nice...it sorta rocked me back in my chair when he suggested that the IRS be shut down. :bigthink:

[Tallen]

Nice...it sorta rocked me back in my chair when he suggested that the IRS be shut down. :bigthink:

Yeah, that's one of the things that Ron Paul was pushing, I like the idea. No more complicated Income Taxes and you have eliminated that government intrusion. :medium-smiley-011:

[TigerBunny]

Yeah, that's one of the things that Ron Paul was pushing, I like the idea. No more complicated Income Taxes and you have eliminated that government intrusion. :medium-smiley-011:

So where would they be taking this money from instead and what would be cut if it was not taken?

[Tallen]

So where would they be taking this money from instead and what would be cut if it was not taken?

They wouldn't need it because the Federal government would be greatly downsized and many services would be put into the private sector. Besides this the individual states would then decide what was necessary and implement the programs that their citizens would want. The distribution of wealth and the entitlement programs of the Federal government would disappear. We would return to the Constitution and the roles that it puts forth for the Federal level. I am all for that.

We are already a long ways down the road to being like Europe and the Socialism that is entrenched there.

[TigerBunny]

They wouldn't need it because the Federal government would be greatly downsized and many services would be put into the private sector. Besides this the individual states would then decide what was necessary and implement the programs that their citizens would want. The distribution of wealth and the entitlement programs of the Federal government would disappear. We would return to the Constitution and the roles that it puts forth for the Federal level. I am all for that.

We are already a long ways down the road to being like Europe and the Socialism that is entrenched there.

Yes Ted...but you are a responsible human being who has been ( and still is ) in a leadership role. Most of humanity doesn't want to be bothered and will follow whoever promises the most. Forgive me if I have a rather low view of sheep and the goats. I'm a sheep. Occasionally a sheepdog. If you've ever looked into raising sheep then you know how humbling that admission is. :medium-smiley-010:

[Tallen]

Yes Ted...but you are a responsible human being who has been ( and still is ) in a leadership role. Most of humanity doesn't want to be bothered and will follow whoever promises the most. Forgive me if I have a rather low view of sheep and the goats. I'm a sheep. Occasionally a sheepdog. If you've ever looked into raising sheep then you know how humbling that admission is. :medium-smiley-010:

The sheep did well for thousands of years without the US Federal government trying to be Robin Hood and take the rewards of hard work from one person giving it to another so they don't have to work. :medium-smiley-011:

[TigerBunny]

The sheep did well for thousands of years without the US Federal government trying to be Robin Hood and take the rewards of hard work from one person giving it to another so they don't have to work. :medium-smiley-011:

Dare I take the socialist or communist view on this one Ted? :biglol:

Anywho...I do like this guy. Thanks for the link.

[raderag]

If it’s a close election, and you vote CP, you are giving ½ vote to Obama and a pro-baby killing supreme court. We were 1 vote from overturning RvW, and now we want to surrender?

What CP supporters are failing to realize is that successful third parties are not built from the top down, but rather as a grass roots movement. There are no qualified CP people on any ballots, and there is not local organization. Therefore, they are waging a war they don’t intend to win. It is purely masturbatory and pretty much embodies the individualistic thinking of our time. It might feel go to vote for them, but it will only leave a mess. Did I mention that the CP has virtually no organization!?? Why do the CP not try to influence local and state politics? Why are they virtually invisible in the political sphere? At least the libertarian party has real candidates running in virtually every election.

5 million voices (the number of babies that will be killed during Obama’s presidency) are calling out for us to stop the radical abortion agenda of the Democratic Party, and all we can do is vote for a candidate whose policies would be controversial even in 1805?

[Tallen]

If it’s a close election, and you vote CP, you are giving ½ vote to Obama and a pro-baby killing supreme court. We were 1 vote from overturning RvW, and now we want to surrender?

This is nothing more than a scare tactic. If I cast a vote for Baldwin, I cast one vote for Baldwin. I am not voting "for" Obama or "against" McCain, I am voting for Baldwin.


What CP supporters are failing to realize is that successful third parties are not built from the top down, but rather as a grass roots movement. There are no qualified CP people on any ballots, and there is not local organization. Therefore, they are waging a war they don’t intend to win. It is purely masturbatory and pretty much embodies the individualistic thinking of our time. It might feel go to vote for them, but it will only leave a mess. Did I mention that the CP has virtually no organization!?? Why do the CP not try to influence local and state politics? Why are they virtually invisible in the political sphere? At least the libertarian party has real candidates running in virtually every election.

I am surprized by the number of tactics that are being used against this party, Brett. And now, you get to determine the legitimacy of a party by how you think it is formed? I have linked to the CP platform and yet no posts are interacting with it. What is happening is that accusatory statements like "their platform stinks" and "your voting for Obama" is being said, but there is no interaction with the statements of the party.


5 million voices (the number of babies that will be killed during Obama’s presidency) are calling out for us to stop the radical abortion agenda of the Democratic Party, and all we can do is vote for a candidate whose policies would be controversial even in 1805?

What about the millions of babies killed during the Bush presidency and the wars that have killed thousands and thousands more. There will be absolutely nothing done about abortion if McCain is elected. There is virtually nothing different in the present policy record that would convince me that Republicans will or want to end abortion. This is not an issue that will generate action on the part of either major party, but is an issue that is propagated for political gain.

It will take a true revolution based upon sincere conviction to change the abortion issue in the US. And if a unified voice is presented, those who are seeking re-election and positions in their party will then listen.

[Julie]

"What about the millions of babies killed during the Bush presidency and the wars that have killed thousands and thousands more."

Isn't that a tu quoe que fallacy? Do we lose hope so quickly? Which is more important, IRS abolishment, or human lives?

[raderag]

This is nothing more than a scare tactic. If I cast a vote for Baldwin, I cast one vote for Baldwin. I am not voting "for" Obama or "against" McCain, I am voting for Baldwin.


I am surprized by the number of tactics that are being used against this party, Brett. And now, you get to determine the legitimacy of a party by how you think it is formed? I have linked to the CP platform and yet no posts are interacting with it. What is happening is that accusatory statements like "their platform stinks" and "your voting for Obama" is being said, but there is no interaction with the statements of the party.

Ted, the party has no intention of winning; at least they have no realistic plan. I have interacted with the statements. They are anti-trade, anti-immigrant, and anti-just about everything else. They hold to a conspiratorial view of history, and a one-sided anti-federalists view at that.




What about the millions of babies killed during the Bush presidency and the wars that have killed thousands and thousands more. There will be absolutely nothing done about abortion if McCain is elected. There is virtually nothing different in the present policy record that would convince me that Republicans will or want to end abortion. This is not an issue that will generate action on the part of either major party, but is an issue that is propagated for political gain. As far as I can tell, Bush has done what he can within his power on this issue. He made excellent Court appointments at all levels. If we get McCain, we may see RvW overturned within 10 years; if Obama, we will be set back at least 20. Those are just facts, not scare tactics.


It will take a true revolution based upon sincere conviction to change the abortion issue in the US. And if a unified voice is presented, those who are seeking re-election and positions in their party will then listen.
All we need is for 3/4th of the states to constitutionally recognize the personhood of humans at conception. Also, I hope you make a distinction in war in that the US government is not setting out to kill inocents (quite the contrary), and is a legitimate governmental authority.

[Tallen]

"What about the millions of babies killed during the Bush presidency and the wars that have killed thousands and thousands more."

Isn't that a tu quoe que fallacy? Do we lose hope so quickly? Which is more important, IRS abolishment, or human lives?

It's a fallacy either way Julie. That's the point. To say that voting for McCain will stop the killing of babies is just much of a fallacy as saying that voting for another political party will be a vote for killing babies. If the Republican party was intent on stopping abortion they would be acting daily within their party and within their political offices to stop it. There should be a bill introduced daily in every state and in the federal government to stop it, for instance.

BTW, what is important here is to re-establish the Constitution as the law of the land. Unfair taxes and government intrusion into our lives is just as important as human life. We have fought wars over these issues. For instance, the Revolutionary War was fought and one of the reasons was for unfair taxes. And the tax rate was far less than what the average American now pays.

[raderag]

It's a fallacy either way Julie. That's the point. To say that voting for McCain will stop the killing of babies is just much of a fallacy as saying that voting for another political party will be a vote for killing babies. If the Republican party was intent on stopping abortion they would be acting daily within their party and within their political offices to stop it. There should be a bill introduced daily in every state and in the federal government to stop it, for instance.

Ted, as I said before, we were 1 vote away from overturning Roe Vs Wade in the early 90s. It is a long battle, but choosing the right warriors is important.

[Tallen]

Ted, as I said before, we were 1 vote away from overturning Roe Vs Wade in the early 90s.

That's almost two decades now Brett. And the political rehtoric continues. There is no conviction to overturn RvW, in fact, many of the Republican candidates are now distancing themselves from even talking about that issue.


It is a long battle, but choosing the right warriors is important.

And just where are the political leaders/warriors leading this fight? There are very few in the political arena. There are very few with the heart of warriors who will carry this fight. And McCain hasn't the political history as a warrior that is willing to fight for overturning RvW.

[raderag]

That's almost two decades now Brett. And the political rehtoric continues. There is no conviction to overturn RvW, in fact, many of the Republican candidates are now distancing themselves from even talking about that issue.



And just where are the political leaders/warriors leading this fight? There are very few in the political arena. There are very few with the heart of warriors who will carry this fight. And McCain hasn't the political history as a warrior that is willing to fight for overturning RvW.

Yes, I am not a McCain fan, but I doubt I said I would never vote for him (perhaps as hyperbole). If I did, please forward me the email.

I used to joke that I would consider voting for Hilary over McCain, but it was in jest.

The reason it is taking so long is because we had Bill Clinton for 8 years. 8 more years of a Republican will give us a 5-4 or 6-3 vote against RvW. Why do you think the abortion left is so against McCain now? they know he may cut into their business.

I think McCain is feckless when it comes to political speech, but I do believe he will appoint good justices.

[Tallen]

Yes, I am not a McCain fan, but I doubt I said I would never vote for him (perhaps as hyperbole). If I did, please forward me the email.

I used to joke that I would consider voting for Hilary over McCain, but it was in jest.

Perhaps you were jesting. I have long deleted the message.


The reason it is taking so long is because we had Bill Clinton for 8 years. 8 more years of a Republican will give us a 5-4 or 6-3 vote against RvW. Why do you think the abortion left is so against McCain now? they know he may cut into their business.

Do you think that only a Republican can appoint judges that will overturn RvW?


I think McCain is feckless when it comes to political speech, but I do believe he will appoint good justices.

I think Baldwin would also. Brett you are basking in the two party propaganda light. If McCain can pick judges to reflect his political and moral beliefs, so can another.

[raderag]

Perhaps you were jesting. I have long deleted the message.



Do you think that only a Republican can appoint judges that will overturn RvW?



I think Baldwin would also. Brett you are basking in the two party propaganda light. If McCain can pick judges to reflect his political and moral beliefs, so can another.

Ted, as I have said the CP has no plan to win any elections, so yes Republicans only.

My cities marching band my play in the Super bowl, but they will not win it.

I'm all for third parties so long as they are either grass roots or have enough political support to get off the ground. The CP/Libertarian party/etc should plan at the grass roots before they spoil the POTUS election.

While I am not a fan, Ross Perot could have built a solid party if it weren't for some of his antics. There are ways to run a third party, but the CP is not doing it.

[Tallen]

Ted, the party has no intention of winning; at least they have no realistic plan. I have interacted with the statements. They are anti-trade, anti-immigrant, and anti-just about everything else. They hold to a conspiratorial view of history, and a one-sided anti-federalists view at that.

Brett, do you really think that these types of statements serve a purpose to further your cause. Just because someone is against NAFTA, wants immagration laws and policies to change, is for the republican views and against federalist views, doesn't make them "ant-trade, anti-immigration and anti-just about everything else." Again you are not addressing the issues that are in the CP's political platform but are trying to push your view at the cost of anothers. Free trade is not anti-trade. Legal immigration according to the law is not anti-immagration. And having a view other than Republican is not being a conspiracist.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_11_10.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm824MNUS)

[Tallen]

Ted, as I have said the CP has no plan to win any elections, so yes Republicans only.

My cities marching band my play in the Super bowl, but they will not win it.

I'm all for third parties so long as they are either grass roots or have enough political support to get off the ground. The CP/Libertarian party/etc should plan at the grass roots before they spoil the POTUS election.

While I am not a fan, Ross Perot could have built a solid party if it weren't for some of his antics. There are ways to run a third party, but the CP is not doing it.

I see it as a start, and if the "grass roots" will think outside of the political propaganda of the two dominate partys, and think in long term, I think that future elections can be won and a stable political party can grow and mature. Voting for "winners" is not a reason to vote according to moral conviction. I addressed this in another post. :medium-smiley-011:

[raderag]

Brett, do you really think that these types of statements serve a purpose to further your cause. Just because someone is against NAFTA, wants immagration laws and policies to change, is for the republican views and against federalist views, doesn't make them "ant-trade, anti-immigration and anti-just about everything else." Again you are not addressing the issues that are in the CP's political platform but are trying to push your view at the cost of anothers. Free trade is not anti-trade. Legal immigration according to the law is not anti-immagration. And having a view other than Republican is not being a conspiracist.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_11_10.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm824MNUS)

Ted, read the darn platform:


We favor a moratorium on immigration to these United States, except in extreme hardship cases or in other individual special circumstances, until the availability of all federal subsidies and assistance be discontinued, and proper security procedures have been instituted to protect against terrorist infiltration.

[Tallen]

Ted, read the darn platform:

I did Brett. And this statement doesn't make them "anti-immagration". Besides I agree with it. We should come down on the side of precaution when it invovles our national security until we have "proper security procedures' that "have been instituted to protect against terrorist infiltration".

Controlling our national security and the immigration coming into our borders are biblical mandates, not "anti-immigration" policies. I would go even further, and if a person is in this country illegally, then they are here as a criminal breaking our laws, they should be immediately deported unless there are circumstances that would jepordize their lives. We should also secure our borders and try to our best abilities to keep illegals from entering. That is a matter of common sense and biblical mandates.

[Julie]

That's almost two decades now Brett. And the political rehtoric continues. There is no conviction to overturn RvW, in fact, many of the Republican candidates are now distancing themselves from even talking about that issue.



And just where are the political leaders/warriors leading this fight? There are very few in the political arena. There are very few with the heart of warriors who will carry this fight. And McCain hasn't the political history as a warrior that is willing to fight for overturning RvW.

Isn't the fight over RvW (and many other social issues) in the Supreme Court? It will take justices who will hear and decide another case to overturn RvW. I heard McCain say he wouldn't have a litmus test for appointing supreme court justices; but I bet Obama has a litmus test already in place. I will place my hopes for Constitutionalist Judges with McCain, even if I don't agree with everything he says. If I can't even find a church to join that I agree with 100 Percent of the time, why would I expect to find that in a fallen political system?

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this conversation as it seems to be getting a bit emotional.

[Tallen]

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this conversation as it seems to be getting a bit emotional.

Me too! :bigtup:

[JBaker45]

To say that voting for McCain will stop the killing of babies is just much of a fallacy as saying that voting for another political party will be a vote for killing babies.
I think that you have neglected to consider the appointment of new supreme court justices.

This is what will prove critical to the future direction of this nation on the matter of abortion.

If Obama wins, who do you think he will appoint :bigthink: :angry:

[Tallen]

I think that you have neglected to consider the appointment of new supreme court justices.

I think that you have neglected to consider that other morally obligated people can pick the Supreme Court Justices as well.


This is what will prove critical to the future direction of this nation on the matter of abortion.

If Obama wins, who do you think he will appoint :bigthink: :angry:

If he wins I think he will appoint the very people that God has ordained for His purpose.

We should vote our conscience and moral convictions as we are citizens of another kingdom, and we should be considering His law as we vote, staying true to our real citizenship.

[JBaker45]

I think that you have neglected to consider that other morally obligated people can pick the Supreme Court Justices as well.



If he wins I think he will appoint the very people that God has ordained for His purpose.

We should vote our conscience and moral convictions as we are citizens of another kingdom, and we should be considering His law as we vote, staying true to our real citizenship.
Ted, Obama has a track record.

I doubt that that he will not continue to pursue the socialist agenda that he is already on.

My question to you is, how can you permit this in good conscience?

[Julie]

Isn't the fight over RvW (and many other social issues) in the Supreme Court? It will take justices who will hear and decide another case to overturn RvW. I heard McCain say he wouldn't have a litmus test for appointing supreme court justices; but I bet Obama has a litmus test already in place. I will place my hopes for Constitutionalist Judges with McCain, even if I don't agree with everything he says. If I can't even find a church to join that I agree with 100 Percent of the time, why would I expect to find that in a fallen political system?

Anyway, I'm bowing out of this conversation as it seems to be getting a bit emotional.


Just wanted to clarify, bowing out doesn't mean i won't lurk and listen. hehehe :medium-smiley-011:

Carry on.

[Tallen]

My question to you is, how can you permit this in good conscience?

Talk about loaded questions. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYYYUS)

Maybe I should kidnap him and keep him in a bread box to prevent him. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_12_12.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYYYUS)

John, put your faith in God, not the American political process. I am not permitting Obama, those folks that vote for him are. And to be honest John, reaching the American people with a sound message and true leadership is something that the Republican party has lost sight of. They are the ones that are permitting the left's message to win out, especially when they put candidates that are left of their conservative voting base.

What happened to Newt Gingrich and his conservative leadership?