I am grieving for what may be ahead

[Tallen]

Ted, The issue here is with the assumption that he is a Muslim.

As has been said, I do not know his heart. But I do not see him as anything more than the normal liberal democrats that we have had in the past. He is no different than the Clintons in my book.

I fully understand that not all who say, "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom. But I also know that there are many who believe wrongly about specific issues that I think will make it.

What I am saying is not a non sequitur, since I am posing questions related to the issue.

Do you believe George Bush is a Christian? If so, on what basis? He allowed for torture of individuals. He got us into a war that by the criteria established by Augustine is not a "just war." What is the basis for believing that he, or any politician is a Christian?

And no, it is not a non-sequitur. The issue is how we are judging these people.

Perhaps I misunderstood you when you asked, "Why is it so hard for you to believe he is a Christian?"

To that I gave the reasons why. Not that I am judging his heart, but I am judging his words and deeds. It is in this that seems to contradict his confession of Jesus Christ as his Lord.

As far as George Bush, I would apply the same standard. I do not know the condition of his heart, so I can't say for sure if he is a Christian man. I do question his core values. If indeed he is allowing unchristian torture and misuse of his calling as a servant of the people he is in serious trouble.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Bobbing and weaving works in boxing. Not here...

Is the Christian God the same as the Muslim god or the Animist's god?? A simple YES or NO will suffice...

[Yodas_Prodigy]

5. In a New York Times interview in 2007, Obama fondly referred to the Islamic evening call to prayer as "one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset." According to the article, "Obama went on to recite its opening lines with a perfect Arabic accent: "Allah is Supreme! ... I witness that there is no god but Allah! I witness that Muhammad is his prophet!"


Again, Don't bob or weave.
Should a Christian be excited about Muslim expressions of faith?
A simple YES or NO will suffice...

[Yodas_Prodigy]

No. Some of us have jobs where we must be responsible to our companies. I certainly will not sit on LAD all day.

Agreed. That's why I went home at lunch time to make my Haymaker Post. :clap:

[Swordman53]

Bobbing and weaving works in boxing. Not here...

Is the Christian God the same as the Muslim god or the Animist's god?? A simple YES or NO will suffice...
I think I asked an honest question based on your comments about his church.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

So if someone says this at a school they attended, where they were required to say something that was probably not understood, there is no way he could possibly be a Christian today. Right?

And if someone attended Catholic school, where they were required as a child to say the "Hail, Mary", then they must be a Catholic. Right?

That is the basis of your argument.

This is a redherring since he is quoted having said it in his adult years...

[Swordman53]

This is a redherring since he is quoted having said it in his adult years...
Well, I have not seen that quote or the source. I also know that he stood at the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem and prayed for wisdom. I doubt that that act made him a Jew.

But let me give you a quote from Christianity Today, January 2008, from an interview with him. Not second hand or out of context.

I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian. I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that that faith gives me a path to be cleansed of sin and have eternal life. But most importantly, I believe in the example that Jesus set by feeding the hungry and healing the sick and always prioritizing the least of these over the powerful. I didn't 'fall out in church' as they say, but there was a very strong awakening in me of the importance of these issues in my life. I didn't want to walk alone on this journey. Accepting Jesus Christ in my life has been a powerful guide for my conduct and my values and my ideals.
Here is the link so you can read it yourself. It also has his view on abortion.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/januaryweb-only/104-32.0.html

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Ted, The issue here is with the assumption that he is a Muslim.


No, there are two issues here:

Is BO a Christian

Is BO a Muslim


I do not see either candidate as demonic. Both of these men are professing Christians.

My concern would be that one or the other will follow a wrong path with good intentions.


Not trying to be arrogant, I know a whole lot more about this than you do. BO is no Christian. I can gladly point you to lot's of his comments that are reflective of who he is.

i.e. Voted 100% in support of Planned Parent Hood, Supports Gay Marriage, Shared an address with Ayers for three years, is a Muslim based on the required daily prayer that he embraced and partook in while in school, he mocks use of the Bible and which part should we use. He supports a Socialistic agenda which is also anti-Christ.

I can go on.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Well, I have not seen that quote or the source.

But let me give you a quote from Christianity Today, January 2008, from an interview with him. Not second hand or out of context.

I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian. I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that that faith gives me a path to be cleansed of sin and have eternal life. But most importantly, I believe in the example that Jesus set by feeding the hungry and healing the sick and always prioritizing the least of these over the powerful. I didn't 'fall out in church' as they say, but there was a very strong awakening in me of the importance of these issues in my life. I didn't want to walk alone on this journey. Accepting Jesus Christ in my life has been a powerful guide for my conduct and my values and my ideals.
Here is the link so you can read it yourself. It also has his view on abortion.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/januaryweb-only/104-32.0.html


And may I remind you:


Do you know that Muslims practice Taqiya? It is ok to lie to promote Islam.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Bump

[Yodas_Prodigy]

I think I asked an honest question based on your comments about his church.

I don't recall saying anything about his church. Please show the quote.

[Julie]

So if someone says this at a school they attended, where they were required to say something that was probably not understood, there is no way he could possibly be a Christian today. Right?

And if someone attended Catholic school, where they were required as a child to say the "Hail, Mary", then they must be a Catholic. Right?

That is the basis of your argument.

I am not arguing that, no.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odsDYodanxQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC9wfBfR4HE&feature=related

[Yodas_Prodigy]

OK, the article...

[Yodas_Prodigy]

I've made my points. I'm sure that you will want to make yours. Unless I see something absolutely absurd, you can have the last comments between me and you.

[Swordman53]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odsDYodanxQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC9wfBfR4HE&feature=related
Still waiting for your answer.

btw - Here is the Washington Times comment on that interview you referenced -

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/08/obama-mistake-on-being-muslim-seized-by-rivals/


ST. LOUIS | Sen. Barack Obama (http://www.washingtontimes.com/themes/?Theme=Barack+Obama)'s foes on Sunday seized upon a brief slip of the tongue when the Democratic presidential nominee was outlining his Christianity but accidentally said "my Muslim faith."

The three words - immediately corrected - were uttered during an exchange with ABC's George Stephanopoulos on "This Week," when Mr. Obama was trying to criticize the quiet smear campaign suggesting that he is a Muslim.

Within one hour of the interview, anti-Obama groups had edited it out of context and were sending it around via e-mail. They also were blogging about it.
I watched that interview. Yes, Stephanopoulos did correct him since it was a clear mis-statement and he agreed, noting the slip.

I am not a fan of Obama. But I have spent many years studying how easy it is to misinterpret something when we ignore the context. I know how people love to manipulate these things. Hatred is a disease that plagues us all and we would best be rid of it in the Christian life.

Obama will be my president in a few months and I will be praying for him, that God gives him wisdom for the battle ahead.

I hope you will be doing the same.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Obama will be my president in a few months and I will be praying for him, that God gives him wisdom for the battle ahead.

I hope you will be doing the same.

Agreed...

[Joe S]

What the crap are you talking about. I never said a word about his ethnicity or race. You must work for NBC. I said (by way of implication) that he is a European progressive socialist, which is the truth. It has nothing to do with color or Arabic names.

[graceshaker]

did i miss the apocalypse? woke up this morning fully expecting to walk outside and see my city in desolation, buildings leveled, empty streets lined with abandoned cars and what few people there may be who survived the initial catastrophic event would be running around with their hands flailing in the air screaming at a falling sky.

needless to say that wasnt the case.

so as i sit in my still standing and fully functioning office pondering these things and reading obscure passages from the book of joel i am perplexed by the vacuous enormity of so many christians sense of tragedy and impending doom. moreover i wonder how any christ followers hope for the future of this country might be wrapped up in anything but christ...

...who is greater than presidents and parties and supreme court justices and is still very much in control of things here on earth. bc the truth is that this election - like every other - is not a matter of chance. which pretty much means that god does not play dice and does not believe in coincidences. lest we consider null the scriptures we claim to believe.

in 2 chronicles 20:6 jehoshphat declares:

o lord god of our fathers are you not god in heaven? you rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. in your hand are power and might so that none is able to withstand you.

jesus knew that authority in this world derives from god and said so to pilate in john 19:11

you would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.

paul makes a similar claim concerning christ in colossians 2:9-10

for in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily and you have been filled in him who is the head of all rule and authority.

these passages cannot be ignored. there are two very solid implications. first that obamas authority is not supreme but falls under gods which means he didnt get there by plan b or fluke. it also means he is not operating outside of gods design.

the second clear implication is that jesus was willing to allow the earthly government of his time to decide his fate on behalf of god. why is this concept so absent from the tremors of fearful christians decrying the death of our nation and the end of the world?

i can only conclude that their hope has been placed in something other than the god they claim to follow and trust. perhaps the political process and partisan politics in general are the means by which they understand kingdom language but the evidence of scripture is in direct opposition to this thinking.

in scripture jesus kingdom is not of this world. check out john 18:36

jesus answered my kingdom is not of this world. if my kingdom were of this world my servants would have been fighting that i might not be delivered over to the jews. but my kingdom is not from the world.

so why all the moaning and wailing? is this the end of the world as we know it? have all the worst fears of god honoring christ followers been realized?

no.

obama is not the antichrist. he is not the messiah either. he is a man and not a god. and our god who controls everything has not only allowed him to become president of the most powerful nation in the world but planned it that way for his purpose. and if jesus was willing to allow the earthly government of his time to decide his fate on behalf of god then his followers had certainly better be ready to do the same.

so calm down and get on with the work of reconciling the world to christ. bc thats why we are here.

[Julie]

did i miss the apocalypse? woke up this morning fully expecting to walk outside and see my city in desolation, buildings leveled, empty streets lined with abandoned cars and what few people there may be who survived the initial catastrophic event would be running around with their hands flailing in the air screaming at a falling sky.

needless to say that wasnt the case.

so as i sit in my still standing and fully functioning office pondering these things and reading obscure passages from the book of joel i am perplexed by the vacuous enormity of so many christians sense of tragedy and impending doom. moreover i wonder how any christ followers hope for the future of this country might be wrapped up in anything but christ...

...who is greater than presidents and parties and supreme court justices and is still very much in control of things here on earth. bc the truth is that this election - like every other - is not a matter of chance. which pretty much means that god does not play dice and does not believe in coincidences. lest we consider null the scriptures we claim to believe.

in 2 chronicles 20:6 jehoshphat declares:

o lord god of our fathers are you not god in heaven? you rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. in your hand are power and might so that none is able to withstand you.

jesus knew that authority in this world derives from god and said so to pilate in john 19:11

you would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.

paul makes a similar claim concerning christ in colossians 2:9-10

for in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily and you have been filled in him who is the head of all rule and authority.

these passages cannot be ignored. there are two very solid implications. first that obamas authority is not supreme but falls under gods which means he didnt get there by plan b or fluke. it also means he is not operating outside of gods design.

the second clear implication is that jesus was willing to allow the earthly government of his time to decide his fate on behalf of god. why is this concept so absent from the tremors of fearful christians decrying the death of our nation and the end of the world?

i can only conclude that their hope has been placed in something other than the god they claim to follow and trust. perhaps the political process and partisan politics in general are the means by which they understand kingdom language but the evidence of scripture is in direct opposition to this thinking.

in scripture jesus kingdom is not of this world. check out john 18:36

jesus answered my kingdom is not of this world. if my kingdom were of this world my servants would have been fighting that i might not be delivered over to the jews. but my kingdom is not from the world.

so why all the moaning and wailing? is this the end of the world as we know it? have all the worst fears of god honoring christ followers been realized?

no.

obama is not the antichrist. he is not the messiah either. he is a man and not a god. and our god who controls everything has not only allowed him to become president of the most powerful nation in the world but planned it that way for his purpose. and if jesus was willing to allow the earthly government of his time to decide his fate on behalf of god then his followers had certainly better be ready to do the same.

so calm down and get on with the work of reconciling the world to christ. bc thats why we are here.

Praying for peace with God for Obama; strength for myself and fellow believers for what Obama will usher into the society in which we live. America asked for a new ruler; we got one.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

and our god who controls everything has not only allowed him to become president of the most powerful nation in the world but planned it that way for his purpose. and if jesus was willing to allow the earthly government of his time to decide his fate on behalf of god then his followers had certainly better be ready to do the same.

so calm down and get on with the work of reconciling the world to christ. bc thats why we are here.

Agreed.


I made my points. And stand by them.

[Tallen]

Obama will be my president in a few months and I will be praying for him, that God gives him wisdom for the battle ahead.

I hope you will be doing the same.

Amen. You know Bob, my faith is in God and His ability to change hearts. If God desires a Pharaoh's heart to be hardened for His purpose, He can also soften his heart.

My faith is in God, not the politics of our nation.

[Tallen]

Amen, I liked it. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_67.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYYYUS)





http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb097&pp=ZSYYYYYYYYUS (http://smiley.smileycentral.com/download/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb097_ZSYYYYYYYYUS&utm_id=7925)

[tking]

As always, right on target. Wish you could hang out over here more!

[Swordman53]

What the crap are you talking about. I never said a word about his ethnicity or race. You must work for NBC. I said (by way of implication) that he is a European progressive socialist, which is the truth. It has nothing to do with color or Arabic names.
Joe - I am talking about the thread in general, not about your individual comments.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Joe - I am talking about the thread in general, not about your individual comments.

So, are you implying that I am the racist? Where did I say anything about his race or ethnicity? BTW, there is only one Race (if you want to be technical), the human race...

[Swordman53]

So, are you implying that I am the racist? Where did I say anything about his race or ethnicity? BTW, there is only one Race (if you want to be technical), the human race...
I am not implying anything about anyone. I am saying the discussion is improper because it would not have occurred without the rhetoric about his background, which includes his ethnicity. It did not occur when Clinton was elected, and he is just as liberal.

If you think this is an issue that escapes anyone, think again. We must always be on guard against these attitude in our churches and ourselves. In my church yesterday, one of the elders was taking prayer requests and commented on the election, using the words "God's judgment" in reference to it. I sat there thinking about what the African-American members of our congregation must think about such a comment. I sat there wondering why we think this election is a judgment of God.

Think about the implications that have been brought out in this discussion -

Obama cannot be Christian, in spite of his own profession of faith in the atoning work of the crucified and risen Christ, because his father was a Muslim and he lived in a Muslim country, attending elementary school there.
He has made comments about multiple paths to God, so he cannot be Christian. (I have hear some Anglicans make the same comments. I believe all must come through Christ, but I will not be the one picking and choosing who gets saved.)
He said a prayer as a child that some are saying forces him to be a Muslim by definition. By such a statement, we are saying that no Muslim could ever convert to Christianity. As a member of a missions-oriented church, I KNOW this is not true.
African-American churches tend to have varying degrees of focus on liberation theology. The majority of my students (in my classes) and many of my fellow students (in seminary) were African-American. Many of them have heard the same theological rhetoric that Obama heard. But in my dealings with them, I know they love Christ and have a passion for souls. They often just see themselves in the prophetic tradition of the Old Testament, where part of the task of the church is to call society to account. Do they get it right 100% of the time? Maybe not, but other Christians do not seem to get it right 100% of the time either.
Keep you guard up against fears in yourself and others. We all suffer from fears of others who are not like ourselves. But Christ stands above the powers and they are subordinate to him. Either we truly believe that, or it becomes just empty rhetoric for us.

[Julie]

I am not implying anything about anyone. I am saying the discussion is improper because it would not have occurred without the rhetoric about his background, which includes his ethnicity. It did not occur when Clinton was elected, and he is just as liberal.

If you think this is an issue that escapes anyone, think again. We must always be on guard against these attitude in our churches and ourselves. In my church yesterday, one of the elders was taking prayer requests and commented on the election, using the words "God's judgment" in reference to it. I sat there thinking about what the African-American members of our congregation must think about such a comment. I sat there wondering why we think this election is a judgment of God.

Think about the implications that have been brought out in this discussion -

Obama cannot be Christian, in spite of his own profession of faith in the atoning work of the crucified and risen Christ, because his father was a Muslim and he lived in a Muslim country, attending elementary school there.
He has made comments about multiple paths to God, so he cannot be Christian. (I have hear some Anglicans make the same comments. I believe all must come through Christ, but I will not be the one picking and choosing who gets saved.)
He said a prayer as a child that some are saying forces him to be a Muslim by definition. By such a statement, we are saying that no Muslim could ever convert to Christianity. As a member of a missions-oriented church, I KNOW this is not true.
African-American churches tend to have varying degrees of focus on liberation theology. The majority of my students (in my classes) and many of my fellow students (in seminary) were African-American. Many of them have heard the same theological rhetoric that Obama heard. But in my dealings with them, I know they love Christ and have a passion for souls. They often just see themselves in the prophetic tradition of the Old Testament, where part of the task of the church is to call society to account. Do they get it right 100% of the time? Maybe not, but other Christians do not seem to get it right 100% of the time either.

Keep you guard up against fears in yourself and others. We all suffer from fears of others who are not like ourselves. But Christ stands above the powers and they are subordinate to him. Either we truly believe that, or it becomes just empty rhetoric for us.

Swordsman, I think the error you are making is an assumption that ppl say these things soley on the basis of Obama's skin color. That is where you err. Don't assume that.

The most racist thing I heard was from someone who voted for Obama: I voted for him because he is black. I want to be able to say I voted for the first Black American President.

(Ok, I am noting that in your post, there was some text that did not show up until I hit the "quote" button. Odd)

[Yodas_Prodigy]

95% of Black voters voted for Obama.

[Athanasius]

Folks, the real evil that is lurking in the soon-to-be administration, is its disregard for life. Life belongs to God, not to man. God is the Creator, not man. "It is He that hath made us, and now we, ourselves."

Please view this video, and pray for the little ones - the ones who have nobody to speak for them, to protect them, from those that seek their little lives:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYRpIf2F9NA

[eagle1]

Folks, the real evil that is lurking in the soon-to-be administration, is its disregard for life. Life belongs to God, not to man. God is the Creator, not man. "It is He that hath made us, and now we, ourselves."

Please view this video, and pray for the little ones - the ones who have nobody to speak for them, to protect them, from those that seek their little lives:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYRpIf2F9NA
In an Ohio paper this week there was a story exclaiming that abortions were down in the state- only 30.000 children were terminated. i assume that number was for the past year.

here is the opening lines from The Columbus Dispatch


Ohio abortions decrease again
Terminated pregnancies at lowest level since tracking started in 1976
Tuesday, November 11, 2008 3:11 AM
By Catherine Candisky (ccandisky@dispatch.com)


THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
The number of abortions performed in Ohio continues to fall. In 2007, 30,859 pregnancies were terminated, down more than 6 percent from the previous year and the lowest number since the state began keeping statistics in 1976.
A report by the Ohio Department of Health shows abortions have been declining since 2000, when 38,140 were performed.

Only 30000 babies terminated?
And that's just ONE state!

We live in a land of darkness and evil even before Obama becomes president..
maybe Rev. Wright is right about God's attitude towards this country.

[eagle1]

In an Ohio paper this week there was a story exclaiming that abortions were down in the state- only 30.000 children were terminated. i assume that number was for the past year.

here is the opening lines from The Columbus Dispatch



Only 30000 babies terminated?
And that's just ONE state!

We live in a land of darkness and evil even before Obama becomes president..
maybe Rev. Wright is right about God's attitude towards this country.


from wikipedia...

How many abortions have there been in 2007?

In: Abortion (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/FAQ/657)
[Edit (javascript:editQ();)]
http://site2.wikianswers.com/templates/icons/rc_gray1.gif?v=33924 http://site2.wikianswers.com/templates/icons/rc_gray1b.gif?v=33924 [Edit (javascript:editA();)] http://site2.wikianswers.com/templates/icons/abar_a.gif?v=33924

F

Answer

I don't know that information has been compiled for this year yet. There are about 3,700, every DAY in the US. That equates to 1.37 MILLION per YEAR. Worldwide, there are approximately 46 MILLION per YEAR.
Only 1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest. 6% occurs because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child. 93% of all abortions, performed in the US, are for social reasons.
Stats taken from abortionno.org, the most extensive compelation of abortion information I have found.

[JBaker45]

95% of Black voters voted for Obama.
Yes.

They feel very strongly that this is good and just for them.

Beverli was a black American and her mother was not only the vice president of the Chicago teachers union, but was also an active delegate of the Democratic party (and she still is active). I spoke with Norma yesterday, and the black America community is completely captivated by Obama.

It still fascinates me how they could have become so enchanted by the democratic party; none the less, it is clear to me that they are in many ways now blinded by their allegiance to a system that never really did seek to serve their them as a social group. Rather, I see that they are being used.

Please pray that the black Americans, as a group, will grow out of this.


God bless,
John

[Tallen]

Please pray that the black Americans, as a group, will grow out of this.

Good to see you back John.

I agree, prayer is needed. And we are seeing many whose eyes are opening to the fact that the Democratic Party has not been as kind to them as they would like to portray themselves. The entire civil rights movement was fought by the southern Democrats (Dixiecrats as they used to be called), and if not for the progressive thinkers in both the Reformed church and the Republican party, among others, there would have been no advances.