Tallen
16th July 2009, 08:02 PM
Eclectic Theology and It's Natural Errors
By: Ted Clore
The eclectic type of theology of WoF naturally leads to errors of both the theology itself and the conclusions it forces into the text of the Bible. A good case in point is found in the article, "The God-Kind Of Faith – A Biblical, Historical, and Theological Defense (Part 1)" by Troy J. Edwards. In his search for confirming materials he commits a logical fallacy, and instead of proving his point, he reads his belief into the materials he presents. This is a typical error of the neophyte, who instead of finding a confirming opinion, reads his presuppositions into the materials he believes is showing his point of view. This unorthodox method is often said to be the leading of the Holy Spirit, but instead is the self -gratification that is felt when something seemingly supports this type of belief.
This approach to theology, although claimed to be approaching scripture to find truth, is in fact approaching scripture with an agenda that only can see through the presuppositional error it burdens itself with. Often the promoter of such ideas rejects the experts in a particular field and disdains the academic credentials and achievements of these individuals while claiming that the Holy Spirit is their teacher and they have no need for these types of individuals when the Holy Spirit is their teacher. But when these experts, ministers and leaders agree upon a point of the theology being promoted they are quick to seize the opportunity and claim them in support of their belief. Case in point.
His presupposition:
"In Kenneth Hagin's book, New Thresholds of Faith, he states that the margin of his Bible reads "Have the faith of God." He goes on to state that Greek scholars say that this should be translated as "The God Kind of Faith."1
Edwards presupposes that Hagin’s view is a proper view and is going to make the case for the believer having the kind of faith God has. In fact, he will in a few sentences make the statement that the believer has the "faith of God". But that is not what I want to concentrate on now, instead I want to show how WoF theology works and approaches scripture. Instead of looking to scripture to establish its doctrine, it reads into scripture and the materials it uses, the assumptions it is looking to prove. Edwards is typical of this theology in his approach.
In his eclectic approach to show his belief, Edwards looks for translations that will use the phrase "faith of God" as it is translated in Mark 11:22. Here is what the KJV says:
"And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. (Mar 11:22 KJV)"
Notice it is translated "Have faith in God".
Edwards is looking to show that this means, "have faith of God", meaning having the "God kind of faith" which was in the marginal notes of Kenneth Hagin’s Bible. This is a redefining of the meaning of biblical faith, which I will show in another article. Now his assumption before we go any further is that faith is a supernatural gift of God, and that God has faith that He gives to the believer. His faith is different than natural faith, because this faith is given to allow the believer to have "the God kind of faith". This is a redefining of the historical and orthodox definition of faith, which is defined as faithfulness, fidelity, reliance, belief and trust in God, or upon the ability of God. Instead, he is going to try and show that this "God kind of faith" is an ability to create and accomplish god-like acts with an attribute of the divine ability. This redefinition from believing God to having God’s attributes is found in his presupposition stated at the beginning of the post.
Edwards lists translations that he feels tells us that the believer has the faith of God, he says:
"My research has shown that there are Bible translations that affirm that Mark 11:22 can indeed be translated as "Faith of God" rather than "Faith in God." Take a moment to read through the translations below:
And Jesus answering saith to them, Have faith of God; for verily I say to you, that whoever may say to this mount, Be taken up, and be cast into the sea, and may not doubt in his heart, but may believe that the things that he saith do come to pass, it shall be to him whatever he may say. Because of this I say to you, all whatever -- praying -- ye do ask, believe that ye receive, and it shall be to you. (Mark 11:22-24; Young's Literal Translation)
And answering Jesus said to them, Have faith of God. For truly I say to you that whoever shall say to this mountain, Be moved and be cast into the sea, and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that what he said shall occur, he shall have whatever he said. Therefore I say to you, All things, whatever you ask, praying, believe that you shall receive them, and it will be to you. (Mark 11:22-24; Modern King James Version, © 1962-1998.
And answering, Jesus said to them, Have faith of God. For truly I say to you, Whoever says to this mountain, Be taken up and be thrown into the sea, and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will happen, it will be to him, whatever he says. Therefore I say to you, All things, whatever you ask, praying, believe that you will receive, and it will be to you. (Mark 11:22-24; Literal Translation of the Bible)
And Jesus answering, saith to them: Have the faith of God. Amen I say to you that whosoever shall say to this mountain, Be thou removed and be cast into the sea, and shall not stagger in his heart, but be believe that whatsoever he saith shall be done; it shall be done unto him. Therefore I say unto you, all things, whatsoever you ask when ye pray, believe that you shall receive: and they shall come unto you. (Mark 11:22-24; The Douay Rheims Bible)
And Jesus, answering, saith unto them, "<strong>Have the faith of God.</strong>" Verily I say to you, whosoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says comes to pass; he shall have it. Therefore, I say to you, all things whatsoever ye pray and ask for, believe that ye received them, and ye shall have them. (Mark 11:22-23; The Worrell New Testament)
All translations that have the phrase "have faith of God." His belief is that he thinks he is showing that the scriptures is telling us to have "the God kind of faith", when in fact, he is reading this into the verse. He says;
"So far we see five translations that confirm that Mark 11:22 can be translated "have the faith of God" vice "have faith in God." Don't let anyone tell you that it does not make a difference whether we us of or in when dealing with Mark 11:22. These two prepositions describe the source of your faith. One finds it's origin in God Himself while the other finds it's source in us. I believe that Jesus is telling us in Mark 11:22 that the source for the faith that we need to move mountains comes from God Himself. The late Greek Scholar, A.S. Worrell said this in his notes on Mark 11:22-23:" Emphasis mine.
His mistake is thinking that there is a discrepancy in the translations and that "in" and "of" are a distinction of source. He is proposing that there is a conflict of translation between those that use "of" and those that use "in". This is his reading into the verse his belief and presupposition that the believer has the "faith of God" or as he stated it "the God kind of faith’. In fact, these translations are not making a distinction at all, both are agreeing in the direction of the faith. The faith is directed at God and in His ability, and neither is telling us what is the source of faith. In other words, the text is telling us have faith in God’s ability, and it matters little if we say it "have faith in God’s ability" or "have faith of God’s ability", the meaning is the same. Just like the various translations tell us.
Edwards assumes that the translators are making a distinction of source, his presupposition, when in fact they are not and they are agreeing in the object that faith is placed upon. His reading is that we should "have the God kind of faith" when the Apostles meaning is that we should have faith "of" God’s ability, meaning we should have faith "in" God’s ability.
He continues:
"A.S. Worrell, Robert Young, and the translators of the Douay Rheims Bible were not the only ones who believed this to be the correct translation of Mark 11:22. In the Original 1599 Geneva Bible notes on Mark 11:22 says "The faith of God is that assured faith and trust which we have in him."[5] A small note on Mark 11:22 in R.A. Torrey's Treasury of Scripture Knowledge says, "faith in God. or, the faith of God."[6] So perhaps the margin of Kenneth Hagin's Bible was not totally wrong after all." Emphasis Edwards.
Edwards has now, because of presuppositions, started reading the commentaries on the verse in the same manner. Notice he has taken the Geneva Bible, and read the commentary as "The faith of God is that assured faith and trust which we have in him" and highlighted the "faith of God". But the commentary goes on to say that this faith is "that assured faith and trust we have in Him." Nowhere is it implied that that faith is the "God kind of faith" that Hagin and the WoF doctrine assumes from the start. Here is the Geneva Bible verse and commentary:
And Iesus answered, and said vnto them, Haue (e) the faith of God. (Mar 11:22 Geneva)
(e) The faith of God is that assured faith and trust which we have in him."
He does the same with Torrey’s comment, which says "faith in God Or the faith of God." Torrey is not making a distinction of the source, but affirming the object of the faith. He with his statement is defining them exactly alike and this apologist doesn’t realize that he is reading his supposition in to the commentary, but instead see the phrase "the faith of God" and assumes this comfirms his presupposition. Torrey is not referencing "the God kind of faith" which Edwards has defined previously.
With this paragraph the WoF apologist has now read his assumptions into the meaning of something that clearly refutes his claim and doesn’t realize that both the text and the commentaries are saying something quite different than his asserted meaning, which is being read into the text of both the scriptures and the commentaries. BTW, Hagin was wrong, and his use of the verse is quite misplaced, and Edwards continues in the same error.
Edwards says:
"However, does this mean that we can take the statement "the faith of God" and imply that it is "The God Kind of Faith?" Well, before I answer that, let's read two other Bible translations of Mark 11:22-24 that might just make this implication:
And Jesus, answering, said to them, Have God's faith. Truly I say to you, Whoever says to this mountain, Be taken up and be put into the sea; and has no doubt in his heart, but has faith that what he says will come about, he will have his desire. For this reason I say to you, Whatever you make a request for in prayer, have faith that it has been given to you, and you will have it. (The Bible In Basic English)
He responded, "Have the kind of trust that comes from God! Yes! I tell you that whoever does not doubt in his heart but trusts that what he says will happen can say to this mountain, 'Go throw yourself into the sea!' and it will be done for him. Therefore, I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, trust that you are receiving it, and it will be yours. (The Jewish New Testament by David Stern)"
Now we have it. His eclectic style of theology has paid-off, he believes he has now justified the translations he has hunted for that has his word’s stated in a manner that shows his opinion. A Bible translated with the purpose of having a very limited vocabulary, based upon 850 English words and a translation that has the agenda of restoring the "Jewish-ness" of the NT. I am not commenting on the authenticity or the motive of the translation, but instead pointing out how Charismatic/WoF apologist and theology operates, seeking from any source something that confirms its assumptions. Any source will do, and if it says what the apologist’s assumes in his belief, it is appealed to for authority to legitimize his theology.
I am not writing this to be critical of Edwards belief that faith’s source is found in God. Nor am I trying to disprove his conclusions as he has written in Part II of his article. What I am doing is showing the method of the theology, the hunt until finding some source that confirms what is presupposed, which I find is the calling card of Charismatic/WoF apologist. Mr. Edwards has on several occasions demonstrated this technique, as well as others that I have recently commented on. It is a pick and chose theology that has little to offer on its own. Edward’s article is a very good example of Eclectic Theology in operation.
Edwards remark was noted earlier, "Don't let anyone tell you that it does not make a difference whether we us of or in when dealing with Mark 11:22. These two prepositions describe the source of your faith. One finds it's origin in God Himself while the other finds it's source in us. I believe that Jesus is telling us in Mark 11:22 that the source for the faith that we need to move mountains comes from God Himself " As I have shown in this article, Edwards comes to the discussion looking for things that will confirm his presupposition. In doing this he misplaces the proper historical apologetic which states its presupposition and confirms it with scripture and opinion, for one that states it’s presupposition then read that into the scripture and opinion he selects to represent his belief.
By: Ted Clore
The eclectic type of theology of WoF naturally leads to errors of both the theology itself and the conclusions it forces into the text of the Bible. A good case in point is found in the article, "The God-Kind Of Faith – A Biblical, Historical, and Theological Defense (Part 1)" by Troy J. Edwards. In his search for confirming materials he commits a logical fallacy, and instead of proving his point, he reads his belief into the materials he presents. This is a typical error of the neophyte, who instead of finding a confirming opinion, reads his presuppositions into the materials he believes is showing his point of view. This unorthodox method is often said to be the leading of the Holy Spirit, but instead is the self -gratification that is felt when something seemingly supports this type of belief.
This approach to theology, although claimed to be approaching scripture to find truth, is in fact approaching scripture with an agenda that only can see through the presuppositional error it burdens itself with. Often the promoter of such ideas rejects the experts in a particular field and disdains the academic credentials and achievements of these individuals while claiming that the Holy Spirit is their teacher and they have no need for these types of individuals when the Holy Spirit is their teacher. But when these experts, ministers and leaders agree upon a point of the theology being promoted they are quick to seize the opportunity and claim them in support of their belief. Case in point.
His presupposition:
"In Kenneth Hagin's book, New Thresholds of Faith, he states that the margin of his Bible reads "Have the faith of God." He goes on to state that Greek scholars say that this should be translated as "The God Kind of Faith."1
Edwards presupposes that Hagin’s view is a proper view and is going to make the case for the believer having the kind of faith God has. In fact, he will in a few sentences make the statement that the believer has the "faith of God". But that is not what I want to concentrate on now, instead I want to show how WoF theology works and approaches scripture. Instead of looking to scripture to establish its doctrine, it reads into scripture and the materials it uses, the assumptions it is looking to prove. Edwards is typical of this theology in his approach.
In his eclectic approach to show his belief, Edwards looks for translations that will use the phrase "faith of God" as it is translated in Mark 11:22. Here is what the KJV says:
"And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. (Mar 11:22 KJV)"
Notice it is translated "Have faith in God".
Edwards is looking to show that this means, "have faith of God", meaning having the "God kind of faith" which was in the marginal notes of Kenneth Hagin’s Bible. This is a redefining of the meaning of biblical faith, which I will show in another article. Now his assumption before we go any further is that faith is a supernatural gift of God, and that God has faith that He gives to the believer. His faith is different than natural faith, because this faith is given to allow the believer to have "the God kind of faith". This is a redefining of the historical and orthodox definition of faith, which is defined as faithfulness, fidelity, reliance, belief and trust in God, or upon the ability of God. Instead, he is going to try and show that this "God kind of faith" is an ability to create and accomplish god-like acts with an attribute of the divine ability. This redefinition from believing God to having God’s attributes is found in his presupposition stated at the beginning of the post.
Edwards lists translations that he feels tells us that the believer has the faith of God, he says:
"My research has shown that there are Bible translations that affirm that Mark 11:22 can indeed be translated as "Faith of God" rather than "Faith in God." Take a moment to read through the translations below:
And Jesus answering saith to them, Have faith of God; for verily I say to you, that whoever may say to this mount, Be taken up, and be cast into the sea, and may not doubt in his heart, but may believe that the things that he saith do come to pass, it shall be to him whatever he may say. Because of this I say to you, all whatever -- praying -- ye do ask, believe that ye receive, and it shall be to you. (Mark 11:22-24; Young's Literal Translation)
And answering Jesus said to them, Have faith of God. For truly I say to you that whoever shall say to this mountain, Be moved and be cast into the sea, and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that what he said shall occur, he shall have whatever he said. Therefore I say to you, All things, whatever you ask, praying, believe that you shall receive them, and it will be to you. (Mark 11:22-24; Modern King James Version, © 1962-1998.
And answering, Jesus said to them, Have faith of God. For truly I say to you, Whoever says to this mountain, Be taken up and be thrown into the sea, and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will happen, it will be to him, whatever he says. Therefore I say to you, All things, whatever you ask, praying, believe that you will receive, and it will be to you. (Mark 11:22-24; Literal Translation of the Bible)
And Jesus answering, saith to them: Have the faith of God. Amen I say to you that whosoever shall say to this mountain, Be thou removed and be cast into the sea, and shall not stagger in his heart, but be believe that whatsoever he saith shall be done; it shall be done unto him. Therefore I say unto you, all things, whatsoever you ask when ye pray, believe that you shall receive: and they shall come unto you. (Mark 11:22-24; The Douay Rheims Bible)
And Jesus, answering, saith unto them, "<strong>Have the faith of God.</strong>" Verily I say to you, whosoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says comes to pass; he shall have it. Therefore, I say to you, all things whatsoever ye pray and ask for, believe that ye received them, and ye shall have them. (Mark 11:22-23; The Worrell New Testament)
All translations that have the phrase "have faith of God." His belief is that he thinks he is showing that the scriptures is telling us to have "the God kind of faith", when in fact, he is reading this into the verse. He says;
"So far we see five translations that confirm that Mark 11:22 can be translated "have the faith of God" vice "have faith in God." Don't let anyone tell you that it does not make a difference whether we us of or in when dealing with Mark 11:22. These two prepositions describe the source of your faith. One finds it's origin in God Himself while the other finds it's source in us. I believe that Jesus is telling us in Mark 11:22 that the source for the faith that we need to move mountains comes from God Himself. The late Greek Scholar, A.S. Worrell said this in his notes on Mark 11:22-23:" Emphasis mine.
His mistake is thinking that there is a discrepancy in the translations and that "in" and "of" are a distinction of source. He is proposing that there is a conflict of translation between those that use "of" and those that use "in". This is his reading into the verse his belief and presupposition that the believer has the "faith of God" or as he stated it "the God kind of faith’. In fact, these translations are not making a distinction at all, both are agreeing in the direction of the faith. The faith is directed at God and in His ability, and neither is telling us what is the source of faith. In other words, the text is telling us have faith in God’s ability, and it matters little if we say it "have faith in God’s ability" or "have faith of God’s ability", the meaning is the same. Just like the various translations tell us.
Edwards assumes that the translators are making a distinction of source, his presupposition, when in fact they are not and they are agreeing in the object that faith is placed upon. His reading is that we should "have the God kind of faith" when the Apostles meaning is that we should have faith "of" God’s ability, meaning we should have faith "in" God’s ability.
He continues:
"A.S. Worrell, Robert Young, and the translators of the Douay Rheims Bible were not the only ones who believed this to be the correct translation of Mark 11:22. In the Original 1599 Geneva Bible notes on Mark 11:22 says "The faith of God is that assured faith and trust which we have in him."[5] A small note on Mark 11:22 in R.A. Torrey's Treasury of Scripture Knowledge says, "faith in God. or, the faith of God."[6] So perhaps the margin of Kenneth Hagin's Bible was not totally wrong after all." Emphasis Edwards.
Edwards has now, because of presuppositions, started reading the commentaries on the verse in the same manner. Notice he has taken the Geneva Bible, and read the commentary as "The faith of God is that assured faith and trust which we have in him" and highlighted the "faith of God". But the commentary goes on to say that this faith is "that assured faith and trust we have in Him." Nowhere is it implied that that faith is the "God kind of faith" that Hagin and the WoF doctrine assumes from the start. Here is the Geneva Bible verse and commentary:
And Iesus answered, and said vnto them, Haue (e) the faith of God. (Mar 11:22 Geneva)
(e) The faith of God is that assured faith and trust which we have in him."
He does the same with Torrey’s comment, which says "faith in God Or the faith of God." Torrey is not making a distinction of the source, but affirming the object of the faith. He with his statement is defining them exactly alike and this apologist doesn’t realize that he is reading his supposition in to the commentary, but instead see the phrase "the faith of God" and assumes this comfirms his presupposition. Torrey is not referencing "the God kind of faith" which Edwards has defined previously.
With this paragraph the WoF apologist has now read his assumptions into the meaning of something that clearly refutes his claim and doesn’t realize that both the text and the commentaries are saying something quite different than his asserted meaning, which is being read into the text of both the scriptures and the commentaries. BTW, Hagin was wrong, and his use of the verse is quite misplaced, and Edwards continues in the same error.
Edwards says:
"However, does this mean that we can take the statement "the faith of God" and imply that it is "The God Kind of Faith?" Well, before I answer that, let's read two other Bible translations of Mark 11:22-24 that might just make this implication:
And Jesus, answering, said to them, Have God's faith. Truly I say to you, Whoever says to this mountain, Be taken up and be put into the sea; and has no doubt in his heart, but has faith that what he says will come about, he will have his desire. For this reason I say to you, Whatever you make a request for in prayer, have faith that it has been given to you, and you will have it. (The Bible In Basic English)
He responded, "Have the kind of trust that comes from God! Yes! I tell you that whoever does not doubt in his heart but trusts that what he says will happen can say to this mountain, 'Go throw yourself into the sea!' and it will be done for him. Therefore, I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, trust that you are receiving it, and it will be yours. (The Jewish New Testament by David Stern)"
Now we have it. His eclectic style of theology has paid-off, he believes he has now justified the translations he has hunted for that has his word’s stated in a manner that shows his opinion. A Bible translated with the purpose of having a very limited vocabulary, based upon 850 English words and a translation that has the agenda of restoring the "Jewish-ness" of the NT. I am not commenting on the authenticity or the motive of the translation, but instead pointing out how Charismatic/WoF apologist and theology operates, seeking from any source something that confirms its assumptions. Any source will do, and if it says what the apologist’s assumes in his belief, it is appealed to for authority to legitimize his theology.
I am not writing this to be critical of Edwards belief that faith’s source is found in God. Nor am I trying to disprove his conclusions as he has written in Part II of his article. What I am doing is showing the method of the theology, the hunt until finding some source that confirms what is presupposed, which I find is the calling card of Charismatic/WoF apologist. Mr. Edwards has on several occasions demonstrated this technique, as well as others that I have recently commented on. It is a pick and chose theology that has little to offer on its own. Edward’s article is a very good example of Eclectic Theology in operation.
Edwards remark was noted earlier, "Don't let anyone tell you that it does not make a difference whether we us of or in when dealing with Mark 11:22. These two prepositions describe the source of your faith. One finds it's origin in God Himself while the other finds it's source in us. I believe that Jesus is telling us in Mark 11:22 that the source for the faith that we need to move mountains comes from God Himself " As I have shown in this article, Edwards comes to the discussion looking for things that will confirm his presupposition. In doing this he misplaces the proper historical apologetic which states its presupposition and confirms it with scripture and opinion, for one that states it’s presupposition then read that into the scripture and opinion he selects to represent his belief.