CARM Discussion on Job

[Maestroh]

Well, well, seeing the coast is clear, VW is back. But it's the VW clone that is good for a laugh. The subject is, "Hey Job, watch your confession."

Read this line Dr Chuck:

I'm sure that you are aware that the Hebrew language has a "permissive" tense that English does not have, so we see God getting blamed for "DOING" all sorts of bad things, when He was actually allowing them to happen. Big difference. (Maestroh - wonder how much Hebrew this clod has actually had? Notice he doesn't say that the Hebrew here is permissive....)

We are told to be thankful. It is easy for us to be thankful when riding high and on top of the world. When tested, by satan, we can lose that ability. So thankfulness means always thankful, no matter what happens. It shows true faith in God and His sovereign plan. (Maestroh: note that he ignores binding the devil in this context)

Job did sin against God. The verse is one of the most confusing in the Bible unless you understand the context and the language barrier. (Maestroh: I think what makes it confusing is that it is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the Bible actually says)

Job should have watched his confession, as should we. Jesus provided the ultimate WoF example for us to follow. What he talked about...came about. A great lesson for us all. (Yeah, Job showed no fear until AFTER the things happened to him...and Job's to blame. Yep, the more things change the more they stay the same). :loveit:

END THREAD


Hmm, sounds like another WOFer rewrites the Bible when it suits him - right?

[Yodas_Prodigy]

This re-writing the Bible with the so-called personal interpretation is a dangerous path to be on. Perhaps we should start asking for these guys to demonstrate their hermeneutic for us.

[chad]

This re-writing the Bible with the so-called personal interpretation is a dangerous path to be on. Perhaps we should start asking for these guys to demonstrate their hermeneutic for us.

As unbiblical as their stance is, I wouldn't call them "fools" - deceived, deceivers, without truth - these I would call them, for these are biblical descriptions of them. But "fools" would not be appropriate.

In Christ,
Chad

[Yodas_Prodigy]

As unbiblical as their stance is, I wouldn't call them "fools" - deceived, deceivers, without truth - these I would call them, for these are biblical descriptions of them. But "fools" would not be appropriate.

In Christ,
Chad

I would not call them fools either. Scripture does not allow for it. It was just a catchy title.

[chad]

I would not call them fools either. Scripture does not allow for it. It was just a catchy title.

Gotta love it too when they start talking about how non-Christians can get results from the "laws of the universe" that God setup, such as believing in order to receive something. I don't know if you saw, but drchuck said in one post under another thread titled, "Observation," that Jesus' statements about "ask and ye shall receive" and "knock and it shall be opened unto you" are universal laws that even unbelievers can "use." This, after he and others have agreed with/praised oxygen for teaching essentially the same thing, despite the fact that oxygen is clearly not a Christian from the things I've seen her post (about there being a "mother" god).

It's really sad to see. I wish God would change their hearts.

In Christ,
Chad

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Gotta love it too when they start talking about how non-Christians can get results from the "laws of the universe" that God setup, such as believing in order to receive something. I don't know if you saw, but drchuck said in one post under another thread titled, "Observation," that Jesus' statements about "ask and ye shall receive" and "knock and it shall be opened unto you" are universal laws that even unbelievers can "use." This, after he and others have agreed with/praised oxygen for teaching essentially the same thing, despite the fact that oxygen is clearly not a Christian from the things I've seen her post (about there being a "mother" god).

It's really sad to see. I wish God would change their hearts.

In Christ,
Chad

Sometimes I just want to get my participation re-newed and make some comments. What I have seen from these folks is a complete disconnect of their brain from scriptural reality.

I want them to give me a detailed explanation of how they interpret scripture. This would corner them in to showing their messed up reasoning.

[ABlessedMan]

I want them to give me a detailed explanation of how they interpret scripture.
Usually literally. :sparkle:

God Bless you, Joe!

In His Love
Bob

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Glad you came over. "Literally" is what gets you guys in to trouble. You don't know when to not be literal. I would love to exegete some passages with many of the WoF at CARM. But as you may notice, adhoms, stupid comments, or just plain ignoring the post is what I have gotten. What amazes me is how similar WoFers are to JW's, LDSers, and Oneness when cornered on their bad theology.

[Tallen]

Usually literally. :sparkle:

Bob, I have often wondered about the "literally" view. It is a hard to determine thing with a lot of scripture and inconsistent when applied.

I have some examples.

[ABlessedMan]

Bob, I have often wondered about the "literally" view. It is a hard to determine thing with a lot of scripture and inconsistent when applied.

I have some examples.
Well, the literal view can get everyone in trouble. There are items in scripture that even the orthodoxy take "literally"...except when not. It must be true for WoF too, mustn't it? :bigO:

I think we all try to view scripture literally except when it obviously is allegory or parable. The issue seems to come with common sense -- that is that the orthodoxy flys more (not exclusively) by the seat of the pants whereas WoF seems more likely to accept scripture at its word even when it flys in the face of natural reason. At least that's my observations.

For instance, "say to this mountain...." I think we both agree that the mountain is a problem or obstacle in your life. To a WoFer, it could also be a literal mountain...just not too often. Jesus was asked by Satan to turn stones into bread (Matt 4) but Jesus refused the side show; Satan told Him to throw himself down from the pinnacle but Jesus refused and told Satan not to tempt God.... Well, the same is true when the WoFer is pressed to "move a grain of sand on the window sill." This isn't a side show for entertainment (or even proof). But, like the fig tree, Jesus did affect physical things in ways that are not explained through natural reason. Walking on the water?? Come on!:bigthink:

In His Love
Bob

[Tallen]

Well, the same is true when the WoFer is pressed to "move a grain of sand on the window sill." This isn't a side show for entertainment (or even proof).

A side note here Bob. The reason I brought up that the woffer can not move a grain of sand by his faith alone, is because of the standard being held out by the wof. The orthodox was being chastised for not believing God, literally in this case because they have a different understanding of the verse, and the wof apologist that was doing the chastising couldn't live by the standard he held out for the orthodox.

In other words, it is most hypocritical of one to condemn another for something he can not do nor does he believe. When pressed, he said he knew the rest of the story and couldn't throw a tree into the sea, only believe he could. And the point is this, who has greater faith, the guy that explains that particular scripture in a certain manner ---and can't throw a tree into the sea--- or, the guy that claims he has greater faith because he believes what Jesus said literally ---and can't throw a tree into the sea---. If the goal is to throw a tree into the sea, both have done the exact same thing, and failed.

I know of no orthodox that would claim that faith is not a substantial, real and effective part of the Christian life. Literal mountains can truly be moved by faith, and kings are brought to justice with it also. In fact, it is by grace through faith that a person is brought into the kingdom of God. But on the other hand, when one claims to have a superior faith and it has no substantial or tangible objective way of knowing, then the claim is nothing more than a bunch of hot air that has passed through the lips of the hypocrite.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Well, the same is true when the WoFer is pressed to "move a grain of sand on the window sill." This isn't a side show for entertainment (or even proof). But, like the fig tree, Jesus did affect physical things in ways that are not explained through natural reason. Walking on the water?? Come on!:bigthink:



The whole grain of sand thing comes down to this, we are accused of being faithless cause we don't agree with your literal interpretation of the text. I clearly exegeted the passage to describe what Christ meant by moving a mountain and casting it in to the sea. Scripture interprets scripture Bob. Yet, you (and your buddy) reject my answer and cling to your hyper literalism, yet you yourself have never cast a tree into the sea let a lone a mountain. But, in your mind, you have the superior interpretation.

And the fig tree is definitely describing Israel. Yet, all you see is a dead tree. And your buddy (DrChuck) mocked my post. If you read where he replaced "Fig Tree" with "Israel", it makes sense with Israel in the verses. But, his post was ended with sarcasm. Rarely have any of you guys ever gone through a passage and explained your starting point, your presuppositions. Why, because then you will have to face the illogic used when interpreting a verse.

[ABlessedMan]

Yet, you ...
Me?

...(and your buddy) reject my answer and cling to your hyper literalism, yet you yourself have never cast a tree into the sea let a lone a mountain.
And Jesus never turned stones into bread, used angels to catch Him from a pinnacle fall, .... It ain't a side-show YP.

But, in your mind, you have the superior interpretation.
Me?


And the fig tree is definitely describing Israel. Yet, all you see is a dead tree. And your buddy (DrChuck) mocked my post. If you read where he replaced "Fig Tree" with "Israel", it makes sense with Israel in the verses. But, his post was ended with sarcasm. Rarely have any of you guys ever gone through a passage and explained your starting point, your presuppositions. Why, because then you will have to face the illogic used when interpreting a verse.
I don't defend drchuck; in fact I corrected a couple of his statements. Whether the fig tree represents Israel or not is a discussion in symbolism. But the fact remains that Jesus cursed the tree for not having fruit and the tree withered and died. It really did. And He said that His disciples could do the same if they say and believe.

In His Love
Bob

[Yodas_Prodigy]

And He said that His disciples could do the same if they say and believe.



So, have you withered any trees with only your words? :bigthink:

[Tallen]

Whether the fig tree represents Israel or not is a discussion in symbolism. But the fact remains that Jesus cursed the tree for not having fruit and the tree withered and died. It really did. And He said that His disciples could do the same if they say and believe.

Lets set aside the "literal-ness" for a moment and agree that a person who has "emough faith" can wither trees and cast mountains. Bob can I ask you, what would be the reason for Christ to curse this particular tree in light of the rest of the preceeding and following verses? And what is the lesson being taught, is it about the power of prayer or about those who have a lot of leaves and no fruit? (WARNING: Sybolism and Metaphor may be in use and parables will be found.)

And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away! Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. (Mat 21:19-22 KJV)

[Maestroh]

But for the moment I will refrain.

Despite my disagreements with some of his points, I like Bob, and I do not wish him to feel that we are 'piling on' him.

And he HAS been one of the WoFers to criticize his own side's defenders who got out of line. So I respect him for that as well.

ABM - did you get my PM on CAR-M?

[ABlessedMan]

But for the moment I will refrain.

Despite my disagreements with some of his points, I like Bob, and I do not wish him to feel that we are 'piling on' him.
Aw, I can take it. :BubbleGum:


And he HAS been one of the WoFers to criticize his own side's defenders who got out of line. So I respect him for that as well.
:BigSmile2: ( I just love this new set of smilies )


ABM - did you get my PM on CAR-M?
Yes, I did. I've been very busy; thanks for the contact point.

You too, Ted...I got both PMs and I'll get back to you on it...but yes that would be wonderful.

Ok, now that nobody knows what I'm talking about :biglol:


In His Love
Bob

[ABlessedMan]

bump myself to get back to YP and Tallen

[Tallen]

bump myself to get back to YP and Tallen

That's one of the good things about LAD Bob, there is no hurry the threads stay within reach because we are just a wee little group of brothers and sisters. :sparkle:

[ABlessedMan]

So, have you withered any trees with only your words? :bigthink:
No. But then again neither have I ever hit a major league pitcher's fast ball....probably couldn't if I stepped up to the plate today....

....but does that mean that it is not possible? That is the real question.

For instance, Paul was shipwrecked on the island and a viper bit him. Do you think if a viper bit you that you could simply shake it off into the fire? Or was that just an analogy of the followers of the serpent being cast into the [lake of] fire?

In His Love
Bob

[ABlessedMan]

Prelude: I can quote this message. Cool. There is also a button to "multi-quote" the message. What is that? It doesn't do anything if I click it; if I right-click and choose "open link" it does what quote does. If I can't figure out these buttons how in the world am I to figure out a withered tree?? :yum:

Ok, to serious stuff now:

Lets set aside the "literal-ness" for a moment and agree that a person who has "emough faith" can wither trees and cast mountains. Bob can I ask you, what would be the reason for Christ to curse this particular tree in light of the rest of the preceeding and following verses? And what is the lesson being taught, is it about the power of prayer or about those who have a lot of leaves and no fruit? (WARNING: Sybolism and Metaphor may be in use and parables will be found.)

And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away! Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. (Mat 21:19-22 KJV)

One can attach symbolism to anything. Unless Jesus explains a parable can we really be sure?

So Jesus sees a fig tree with leaves, comes up to it finds no fruit and gets mad at it. Seems reactionary. The disciples see the withered tree the next day (Mark 11) or presently (Matt 21). Matthew's "presently" does not contradict Marks "next day" since presently simply states that they did see the withered tree. Matthew's "immediately" could be explained that the roots immediately began to die (in fact Mark 11:20 says this) and the disciples saw external evidence the next day (Mark).

Either way, the tree physically withered away. The disciples saw it.

Now, looking at the verse we have a couple things to consider. If we back up one verse to Matt 21:18 (and also Mark 11:12), it says "...He was hungry." If this is simply a metaphor for Israel then why do we care about Jesus' hunger?

Matthew 21:21
Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree,
In the above verse we are told that if we [or maybe limited to the disciples (I'll take the former)] have faith, [we/disciples] can do this to fig trees too. So if this is a metaphor for Israel, then with faith I can ... what? ... damn a whole nation?

If Jesus would have seen the fig tree, cursed it, it withered and that was the end of it....or if he told it in a parable .... then maybe. But this was done and explained as something that the disciples (and us through scripture) must see, and we (or they) are told that they will do this too.

In His Love
Bob

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Hello Bob,




No. But then again neither have I ever hit a major league pitcher's fast ball....probably couldn't if I stepped up to the plate today....
....but does that mean that it is not possible? That is the real question.

The analogy doesn't work Bob. If a pitcher throws a 1,000 0r 10,000 fast balls, you will eventually hit the ball. But to claim that you can wither something through your faith is absurd.

Again, I revert back to the context and scripture interpreting scripture. Jesus clearly used the same words elsewhere and it was clearly symbolic. What good would it be for 10,000,000 WoFers to all wither up a tree or grab a mountain by faith and throw it in to the sea? You see the actual logical conclusion of your belief system leads to absurdity. Christ clearly was speaking metaphorically.




For instance, Paul was shipwrecked on the island and a viper bit him. Do you think if a viper bit you that you could simply shake it off into the fire? Or was that just an analogy of the followers of the serpent being cast into the [lake of] fire?

In His Love
Bob

Now you are comparing Apples and Oranges. Did Paul cast it in to the sea with his faith Bob? Secondly, a providential God had Paul dieing elsewhere when his job on earth was complete.

To steal a comment from a Vice-Presedential Debate; You, nor I, nor any WoFer is a Paul or a Jesus Christ. These are specially chosen vessels of God's Grace. Twisting scripture only self deceives.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Bob,

Scripture interprets scripture:

Matthew 17

14When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15"Lord, have mercy on my son," he said. "He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him."
17"O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." 18Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.
19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?" 20He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."[a]

[Now Bob, what was the mountain in this parable? It was the casting out of the demon. Hence, the mountain is a metaphor for the demon.]

Here Bob, in Matthew 21, Jesus showed his zeal for his Father’s house. It is also demonstrated the heart of the people. During the triumphal entry, Jesus wanted to gather them as a Hen gathers her chicks. Yet, just three chapters later, Jesus announces what Israel’s future is going to be, and it ain’t purdy.

Matthew 21
Jesus at the Temple

12Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13"It is written," he said to them, " 'My house will be called a house of prayer,'[e] but you are making it a 'den of robbers.'[f]"
14The blind and the lame came to him at the temple, and he healed them. 15But when the chief priests and the teachers of the law saw the wonderful things he did and the children shouting in the temple area, "Hosanna to the Son of David," they were indignant.
16"Do you hear what these children are saying?" they asked him.
"Yes," replied Jesus, "have you never read,
" 'From the lips of children and infants
you have ordained praise'[g]?"
17And he left them and went out of the city to Bethany, where he spent the night.

The Fig Tree Withers

18Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered. 20When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?" they asked.
21Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

[Now, I explained over at CARM that the Fig Tree has been described elsewhere in scripture as being Israel. I don’t know of anyone who disagrees with this comment other than the ignorant and those with an agenda. Dispensational Pre-Mils, your self included, cling to this description as it relates to Matthew 24]

Matthew 24

Signs of the End of the Age

1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
[B] 32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

[Scripture interprets scripture Bob. The Fig tree is Israel. "Mountains" is a metaphor for obstacles in life.]

[Tallen]

19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?" 20He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

Isn't that the exact point? That is, men are not the Son of God and the reason that they can't move a mountain is because they lack faith. Jesus could've said to the mountain, "move" and it would have moved... for sure. He is the creator of the mountain. And the disciples could say to the mountain "move" and it would not move. Why? because God did not give them the role of the Son of God, and they had not the unwavering faith and absolute confidence of the Father that Christ had. Jesus wasn't teaching the disciples how to "get faith" so they could move the mountain, he was telling them why they couldn't move a mountain. The point being this, "why can't we drive out the spirit", and Jesus said "because you are not equipped by God to do that. If you were, then nothing would be impossible for you." He knew the source of faith.

What gives the believer faith, the Holy Spirit or the willingness of a person? It is contrary to scripture to think that a person with willingness equips himself to receive from God. If anything can be learned from the Bible it is that a person receives nothing from God via his own will. That is an absolutely contrary teaching from what the scripture teaches. A mutually exclusive idea, that man earns from God through will and desire. In fact, faith is fruit of being in union with God, and has nothing to do with the willingness of the believer and everything to do with the grace of God. It is just the opposite, the willingness of the believer is a result of the Spirit of God, who produces within us His fruit.

"Because you have so little faith" isn't a rebuke by the Lord, it is a stated fact in response to their question.

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. (Rom 12:3 KJV)

It is a high mind thinking from a proud heart that thinks we are the "producers" of faith.