A Reformation Debate

[tking]

While I was away, recently, I went to a huge, old, books-to-the-ceiling used book store. I was hoping to find a used copy of the Institutes...no luck. I did, however, find this little booklet:

A Reformation Debate, John Calvin and Jacopo Sadoleto
edited by John C. Olin

Anyone ever read it? I'm looking forward to checking it out here in a day or two.

[Tallen]

While I was away, recently, I went to a huge, old, books-to-the-ceiling used book store. I was hoping to find a used copy of the Institutes...no luck. I did, however, find this little booklet:

A Reformation Debate, John Calvin and Jacopo Sadoleto
edited by John C. Olin

Anyone ever read it? I'm looking forward to checking it out here in a day or two.

I have heard of that booklet on several occasions, never read. Please let us know what you think of it.

[tking]

I started it tonight. My first impression of Sadoleto was "oh boy, and we think there's propaganda now!" My first impression of Calvin's rebuttal is that he's moppin up the floor with the guy...in a very impressive and factual way, I might add. Tomorrow I'll try to finish it and post some little snippets so you can see what I mean.

[JBaker45]

I started it tonight. My first impression of Sadoleto was "oh boy, and we think there's propaganda now!" My first impression of Calvin's rebuttal is that he's moppin up the floor with the guy...in a very impressive and factual way, I might add. Tomorrow I'll try to finish it and post some little snippets so you can see what I mean.
Wow.. This sounds interesting.

I look forward to the snippets :smile:

[Tallen]

I started it tonight. My first impression of Sadoleto was "oh boy, and we think there's propaganda now!" My first impression of Calvin's rebuttal is that he's moppin up the floor with the guy...in a very impressive and factual way, I might add. Tomorrow I'll try to finish it and post some little snippets so you can see what I mean.

I believe I read before that Sadoleto was considered to be a great orator and defender of Rome. He became a Cardinal after his debate with Calvin.

[JBaker45]

I believe I read before that Sadoleto was considered to be a great orator and defender of Rome. He became a Cardinal after his debate with Calvin.
Obviously he was promoted in order to make it look like he had defeated Calvin ;-)

[tking]

Yes, he was quite well trained, as Calvin acknowledges in his letter. However, according to these letters, Sadoleto was already a Cardinal at the time of their writing. Sadoleto mentions it, as you'll see.

[tking]

According to this booklet, there was never any rebuttal to Calvin's letter. Some claimed it was because Calvin so completely trounced Sadoleto, others because much more political unrest came about at the same time....so I guess it's up for grabs as the real reason...lol. But, as I told Tallen, according to the letters, Sadoleto was already Cardinal.

[tking]

I'm going to divide this according to some mention of the Introduction and Sadoleto's letter. Then the next post will be Calvin's rebuttal letter.

The backdrop for these letters is the showdown between Geneva's civil authorities and the Reformers, in particular Calvin and Farel, in 1538. Ken Olin, editor, says this in the Introduction:

"This 'revolution of 1538' as Doumergue called it, created a highly unsettled state of affairs and led to further dissension within the reform party....It was then that Sadoleto, to use the picturesque words of Calvin's future colleague and first biographer, Theodore Beza, "observing his opportunity in the circumstances which had occurred, and thinking that he would easily ensnare the flock, when deprived of its distinguished pastors, under the pretext of neighborhood...sent a letter to his, so-styled, more Beloved Senate, Council, and People of Geneva, omitting nothing which might tend to bring them back in the lap of the Romish Harlot.'"

Olin later says:

"But aside from the personal element in the letters is their relevance to the fundamental issues raised by the Reformation. Here two important points stand out: (1) the question of the Church and its authority and (2) the doctrine of justification by faith alone...

Sadoleto's letter essentially is a defense of the age-old Church against those who would overturn its authority and alter its practices and beliefs.....Twice he poses the key issue in the most explicit terms: 'whether to accord with the whole Church, and faithfully observe her decrees, and laws, and sacraments, or to assent to men seeking dissension and novelty?'


Calvin's reply is lengthier and more diffuse than Sadoleto's appeal, but in essence it rejects this image of the Church--this Catholic concept of the enduring Church of Christ, erring not--in the name of fidelity to the ancient Church and to its touchstone, the Word of God."



The Letters

Sadoleto opens his letter elaborating on how he is residing at Carpentras and how he loves that city. He tells them that the honor of the Cardinalship was bestowed on him unexpectedly without his knowledge, and that he'll probably have to go back to Rome to serve. He tells them that he is "daily hearing" things about Geneva that brings him grief and also hope that he and they who "were formerly in true religion of one mind towad God, might, by the same God looking more benignly upon us, return to the same cordial agreement, it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to me (for so Scripture speaketh, and assuredly whatsoever things are done with an upright and pious mind toward God are all of the Holy Spirit), it seemed good to me, I say, to write somewhat to you and declare to you by letter the care and solicitude of mind which I feel for you."

Later in the letter:

"...necessity is laid upon me to demonstrate in what way I feel affected toward you, if I would maintain my fidelity toward Almighty God, and Christian charity toward my neighbor. For after it was brought to my ears that certain crafty men, enemies of Christian unity and peace, had...cast among you, and in your city the wicked seeds of discord, had turned the faithful people of Christ aside from the way of their fathers and ancestors, and from the perpetual sentiments of the Catholic Church....(such is always the appropriate course of those who seek new power and new honors for themselves, by assailing the authority of the Church)."

More:

"Since my love toward you, and my piety to God, compel me, as a brother to brethren, and friend to friends, freely to lay before you the inmost feelings of my mind, I would earnestly entreat you, that the goodness which you are always wont to evince, you would show to me on the present occasion, by receiving and reading my letter not grudgingly."

"...those men have misled you, when, among the unwary, they boasted of certain hidden interpretations of Scripture, dignifying their fraud and malice with the noble, indeed, but false and inappropriate, name of learning and wisdom."

"Moreover, we obtain this blessing of complete and perpetual salvation by faith alone in God and in Jesus Christ. When I say by faith alone, I do not mean, as those inventors of novelties do, a mere credulity and confidence in God, by which to the seclusion of charity and the other duties of a Christian mind, I am persuaded that in the cross and blood of Christ all my faults are unknown; this indeed is necessary, and forms the first access which we have to God, but it is not enough... Christ was sent that we, by well-doing, may, through Him, be accepted of God....When we say, then, that we can be saved by faith alone in God and Jesus Christ, we hold that in this very faith love is essentially comprehended as the chief and primary cause of our salvation."

He goes on to talk about martyrs and how they laid down their lives to "defend and preserve the interest of their souls" and of how the Church has suffered injuries and calamities. He speaks of how these things were permitted by God so that the Church would be beaten with hammers and purified with fire and "worked into shape by so many toils and labors of saints, might for her fidelity obtain the highest favor with God, and the greatest authority among men.

"This Church hath regenerated us to God in Christ, hath nourished and confirmed us, instructed us what to think, what to believe, wherein to place our hope, and also taught us by what way we must tend toward heaven....and by whatever expiations, penances, and satisfactions, she tells us that our sin is washed away, and we restored to our former integrity these methods of expiation and satisfaction we have recourse to and employ--trusting, when we do so, to find a place of mercy and pardon with God. For we do not arrogate to ourselves anything beyond the opinion and authority of the Church."

He delves off into how prideful it is to think man knows better than the church and how angels were expelled from heaven for their pride. He warns them of losing their soul due to pride and and it is the most evil sin. He calls this a "depraved worship" of God and false religion.

"The point in dispute is whether is it more expedient for your salvation, and whether you think you will do what is more pleasing to God, by believing and following what the Catholic Church throughout the whole world, now for more than fifteen hundred years, or (if we require clear and certain recorded notice of the facts) for more than thirteen hundred years approves with general consent; or innovations introduced with these twenty-five years, by crafty or as they think themselves, acute men; but men certainly who are not themselves the Catholic Church?... I will say nothing of the Eucharist, in which we worship the most true body of Christ. Those men, little aware how in each kind of learning it is necessary to employ reasons and arguments, endeavor, by means of reasons which are inapplicable, and drawn from dialectics and vain philosophy, to enclose the very Lord of the universe, and His divine and spiritual power therein (which is altogether free and infinite), within the corners of a corporeal nature, circumscribed by its own boundaries. Nor will I speak of confession of sins to a priest, in which confession that which forms the strongest foundation of our safety, viz., true Christian humility, has both been demonstrated by Scripture, and established and enjoined by the Church; this humility these men have studied calumniously to evade, and presumptuously to cast away. Nor will I say anything either of the prayers of the saints to God for us....Can they possibly imagine that the soul perishes along with its body? This they certainly seem to insinuate, and they do it still more openly when they strive to procure for themselves a liberty of conduct set loose from all ecclesiastical laws, and a license for their lusts."

This next part is priceless. It is the contrast of what a Catholic would say if standing before God to be judged and what a Reformer would say. First is the Catholic:

"Having been instructed by my parents, who had learned it from their fathers and forefathers, that I should, in all things, be obedient to the Catholic Church, and revere and observe its laws, admonitions, and decrees, as if Thou, thyself, O Lord, hadst made them, and perceiving that almost all who bore the Christian name and title in our days, and before it, and followed Thy standards far and wide over the world, were and had been of the same opinion, all of them acknowledging and venerating this very Church, as the mother of their faith, and regarding it as a kind of sacrilege to depart from her precepts and constitution, I studied to approve myself to Thee by the same faith which the Catholic Church keeps and inculcates. And though new men had come with the Scripture much in their mouths and hands, who attempted to stir some novelties, to pull down what was ancient, to argue against the Church, to snatch away and wrest from us the obedience which we all yielded to it, I was still desirous to adhere firmly to that which had been delivered to me by my parents....." And on it goes in this fashion for another little bit.

Now the Reformer:

"Almighty God, when I beheld the manners of ecclesiastics almost everywhere corrupt, and saw the priests, nevertheless, from a regard to religion, universally honored, offended at their wealth, a just indignation, as I consider it, inflamed my mind and made me their opponent; and when I beheld myself, after having devoted so many years to literature and theology, without that place in the Church which my labors had merited, while I saw many unworthy persons exalted to honors and priestly offices, I betook myself to the assailing of those who I thought were by no means pleasing and acceptable to Thee. And because I could not destroy their power without first trampling on the laws enacted by the Church, I induced a great part of the people to contemn those rights of the Church which had long before been ratified and involate.....I contended that all of us, Thy worshippers, should shake off the tyrannical yoke of the Church, which sometimes forbids meats, which observes days, which will have us to confess our sins to priests, which orders vows to be performed, and which binds with so many chains of bondage men made free, O Christ, in Thee; and that we should trust to faith alone, and not also to good works (which are particularly extolled and proclaimed in the Church), to procure us righteousness and salvation--seeing, especially, that Thou hadst paid the penalty for us, and by Thy sacred blood wiped away all faults and crimes, in order that we, trusting to this our faith in Thee, might thereafter be able to do with greater freedom whatosever we listed" And on it goes for a while.

"I ask you, my Geneves brethren, whom I long to have of one mind with me in Christ, and in the Church of Christ, what judgment, think you, will be passed on these two men and their associates and followers? Is it not certain that he who followed the Catholic Church will not be judged guilty of any error in this respect? First, because the Church errs not, and even cannot err, since the Holy Spirit constantly guides her public and universal decrees and councils." What follows is more along the same line as the propaganda we see each day on various Catholic forums.

"But the other, trusting to his own head, having none among the ancient Fathers, and not even general assemblies of the whole Bishops.....to what does he look as the haven of his fortunes? in what bulwark does he confide? to whom does he trust as his advocates with God, so as not to have great cause of dread that he will be cast into outer darkness...."

"You may, perhaps, hate our persons, but you certainly ought not to have a hatred for our faith and doctrine; for it is written 'What they say, do.'....I make a tender of all to you and your interests, and will regard it as a great favor to myself, should you be able to reap any fruit and advantage from my labor, and assistance in things human and divine."

[tking]

Calvin's letter is MUCH longer, but here are a few bits, more or less, in reply to Sadoleto's that I posted.

"In that letter, as it was not expedient to wound the feelings of those whose favor you required to gain your cause, you acted the part of a good pleader; for you endeavored to soothe them by abundance of flattery, in order that you might gain them over to your views. Anything of obloquy and bitterness you directed against those whose exertions had produced the revolt from that tyranny."

He then goes on to talk about how, if the letter had only been aimed at Calvin himself, he could have ignored it. But since it is directed toward the ministry altogether, he cannot. He credits Saldoleto with his training and candor and then:

"For were it not for the great credit you formerly acquired for candor, it is somewhat suspicious that a stranger, who never before had any intercourse with the Genevese, should now suddenly profess for them so great an affection, though no previous sign of it existed, while as one imbued, almost from a boy, with Romish arts (such arts as are now learned in the Court of Rome, that forge of all craft and trickery), educated, too, in the very bosom of Clement, and now, moreover, elected a cardinal, you have many things about you which, with most men, would in this matter subject you to suspicion....But things of this nature....I am unwilling to ascribe to you, because they seem to me unsuitable to the character of one who has been polished by all kinds of liberal learning. I will, therefore, in entering into dicussion with you, give you credit for having written to the Genevese with the purest intention as becomes one of your learning...."

In addressing Saldoleto's accusation that the Reformers left because they didn't get the fame or wealth they wanted, Calvin replies:

"This only I will be contented to say, it would not have been difficult for me to reach the summit of my wishes, viz., the enjoyment of literary ease with something of a free and honorable station. Therefore, I have no fear that anyone not possessed of shameless effrontery will object to me that out of the kingdom of the Pope I sought for any personal advantage which was not there ready to my hand.

Some of our (reformers) are known to you by fame. As to them, I appeal to your own conscience. Think you it was hunger which drove them away from you, and made them in despair flee to that change as a means of bettering their fortunes?"

He then goes on to tell of how much all of them had lost by leaving the Catholic church. They had faced scandal, civil dispute, funding, etc. He then begins addressing specifics.

"As to your preface, which, in proclaiming the excellence of eternal blessedness, occupies about a third part of your letter, it cannot be necessary for me to dwell long in reply. For although commendation of the future and eternal life is a theme which deserves to be sounded in our ears by day and by night, to be constantly kept in remembrance, and made the subject of ceaseless meditation, yet I know not for what reason you have so spun out your discourse upon it here, unless it were to recommend yourself by giving some indication of religious feelings.....it is not very sound theology to confine a man's thoughts so much to himself, and not to set before him, as the prime motive of his existence, zeal to illustrate the glory of God."

Calvin acknowledges that perverse worship of God is perilous to our salvation and then turns that on Sadoleto.

"Therefore, Sadoleto, when you uttered this voluntary confession, you laid the foundation of my defense...it now only remains for us to inquire which of the two parties retains that worship of God which is alone legitimate....you assume that the most certain rule of worship is that which is prescribed by the Church. But, Sadoleto, as I see you toiling in vain, I will relieve you from all trouble on this head. You are mistaken in supposing that we desire to lead away the people from that method of worshipping God which the Catholic Church always observed. You either labor under a delusion as to the term 'church', or, at least knowingly and willingly give it a gloss."

At this point Calvin points out that the Church is grounded in the Word of God, that the Church is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, and that the the gospel is the "sceptre by which the heavenly King rules His people." He talks of Chysostom advising them to reject those who lead us away from the truth of the gospel. He compares the similarities of the Pope and the Anabaptists and says:

"And yet, that you may see that Satan never transforms himself so cunningly as not in some measure to betray himself, the principle weapon with which they both assail us is the same. For when they boast extravagantly of the Spirit, the tendency certainly is to sink and bury the Word of God, that they may make room for their own falsehoods."

In speaking of the sacraments:

"Ceremonies, we have, in a great measure abolished, but we were compelled to do so; partly because by their multitude they had degenerated into a kind of Judaism, partly because they had filled the minds of the people with superstition, and could not possibly remain without doing the greatest injury to the piety which it was their office to promote. Still we have retained those which seemed sufficient for the circumstances of the times."

In rebutting accusations of using scripure to lead the people away:

"You are just as uncandid when you aver that we have seduced the people by thorny and subtle questions, and so enticed them by that philosophy of which Paul bids Christians beware. What? do you remember what kind of time it was when our (reformers) appeared, and what kind of doctrine candidates for the ministry learned in the schools? You yourself know that it was mere sophistry, and sophistry so twisted, involved, tortuous, and puzzling, that scholastic theology might well be described as a species of secret magic. The denser the darkness in which any one shrouded a subject, the more he puzzled himself and others with preposterous riddles, the greater his fame for acumen and learning. And when those who had been formed in that forge wished to carry the fruit of their learning to the people with what skill, I ask, did they edify the Church?"

(At one point Sadoleto had quoted Paul about "vain philosophy.") But had you continued your quotation from Paul a little farther, any boy would easily have perceived that the charge which you bring against us is undoubtedly applicable to yourself. For Paul there interprets "vain philsophy" (Col. 2:8) to mean that which preys upon pious souls by means of the constitutions of men and the elements of this world: and by these you have ruined the Church."

Against the charges about works, Calvin states:

"First, we bid a man begin by examining himself, and this not in a superficial perfunctory manner, but to cite his conscience before the tribunal of God...Then we show that the only haven of safety is in the mercy of God, as manifested in Christ....He has wiped off our transgressions; by His sacrifice, appeased the divine anger; by His blood, washed away our sins; by His cross, borne our curse; and by His death, made satisfaction for us. We maintain that in this way man is reconciled in Christ to God the Father, by no merit of his own, by no value of works, but by gratuitous mercy.

Assuredly we do deny that in justifying a man they (works) are worth one single straw.

We deny that good works have any share in justification, but we claim full authority for them in the lives of the righteous.

Your ignorance of this doctrine leads you on to the error of teaching that sins are expiated by penances and satisfactions. Where, then, will be that one expiatory victim, from which if we depart, there remains, as Scripture testifes, no more sacrifice for sin?...if the blood of Christ alone is uniformly set forth as purchasing satisfaction, reconciliation, and ablution, how dare you presume to transfer so great an honor to your works?"

In speaking of the Eucharist:

"...though we hold that there must be no local limitation, that the glorious body of Christ must not be degraded to earthly elements; that there must be no fiction of transubstantiating the bread into Christ, and afterward worshipping it as Christ. We explain the dignity and end of this solemn rite in the loftiest terms which we can employ, and then delcare how great the advantages which we derive from it. Almost all these things are neglected by you. For overlooking the divine beneficence which is here bestowed upon us, overlooking the legitimate use of so great a benefit, you count it enough that the people gaze stupidly at the visible sign, without any understanding of the spiritual mystery...we have not acted without the concurrence of the ancient Church, under whose shadow you endeavor in vain to hide the very vile superstitions to which you are here addicted."

Calvin addresses the law that Innocent had inducted which had every one come once a year to confess all his sins before the priest:

"But that the thing was nefarious is apparent even from this, that pious consciences, which formerly boiled with perpetual anxiety, have at length begun, after being freed from that dire torment, to rest with confidence in the divine favor; to say nothing, meanwhile, of the many diasters which it brought upon the Church, and which justly entitle us to hold it in execration...We have forcibly wrested from the hands of the sophists all the passages of Scripture which they had contrived to distort in support of it, while the common books on ecclesiastical history show that it had no existence in an earlier age."

On the intercession of saints:

"But in regard to the intercession of the saints, we insist on a point which it is not strange that you omit. For here innumerable superstitions were to be cut off, superstitions which had risen to such a height that the intercession of Christ was utterly erased from men's thoughts, saints were invoked as gods, the peculiar offices of Deity were distributed among them, and a worship paid to them which differed in nothing from that ancient idiolatry which we all deservedly execrate."

On the "only" Church:

"But what arrogance, you will say, to boast that the Church is with you alone, and to deny it to all the world besides! We indeed, Sadoleto, deny not that those over which you preside are Churches of Christ, but we maintain that the Roman Pontiff, with his whole herd of pseudo-bishops, who have seized upon the pastor's office are ravening wolves, whose only study has hitherto been to scatter and trample upon the kingdom of Christ, filling it with ruin and devastation...

Destroyed the church would have been, had not God, with singular goodness, prevented. For in all places where the tyranny of the Roman Pontiff prevails, you scarcely see as many stray and tattered vestiges as will enable you to perceive that there churches lie half buried. Nor should you think this absurd since Paul tells you (2 Thess. 2:4) that Antichrist would have his seat in no other place than in the midst of God's sanctuary. Ought not this single warning to put us on our guard against tricks and devices which may be practiced in the name of the Church?....

Let your Pontiff, then, boast as he may of the succession of Peter: even should he make good his title to it, he will establish nothing more than that obedience is due to him from the Christian people, so long as he himself maintains his fidelity to Christ, and deviates not from the purity of the gospel...the order, I say, which the Lord himself instituted among the faithful, viz., that a Prophet holding the place of teacher should be judged by the congregation (1 Cor. 14:29). Whoever exempts himself from this must first expunge his name from the list of Prophets. And here a very wide field for exposing your ignorance opens upon me, since, in matters of religious controversy, all that you leave to the faithful is to shut their own eyes, and to submit implicitly to their teachers."

In rebuttal of Sadoleto's statements about licentiousness being the motive for breaking from the Church:

"As to your assertion that our only aim in shaking off this tyrannical yoke was to set ourselves free for unbridled licentiousness after (so help us!) casting away all thoughts of future life, let judgment be given after comparing our conduct with yours....we have always protested that the miserable condition into which the Church had fallen was owing to nothing more than to its enervation by luxury and indulgence....But how, on your part, is discipline either observed or desired? Where are those ancient canons with which, like a bridle, bishops and priests were kept to their duty? How are your bishops elected? after what trial? what examination? what care? what caution? How are they inducted to their office? with what order? what solemnity? They merely take an official oath that they will perform the pastoral office, and this apparently for no other end than that they may add perjury to their other inquities. Since, then, in seizing upon ecclesiastical offices they seem to enter upon an authority astricted by no law, they think themselves free to do as they please, and hence it is that among pirates and robbers there is apparently more justice and regular government, more effect given to law, than by all your order."

Calvin then goes on to address the "standing before God" appeals that Sadoleto contrasted. It's quite lengthy. The first part deals with how it became apparent that the Church was fallen into corruption, how Calvin and others struggled with knowing what to do or how to proceed, and how God stimulated his soul.

"Assuredly, the thing at which I chiefly aimed, and for which I most diligently labored, was that the glory of thy goodness and justice, after dispersing the mists by which it was formerly obscured, might shine forth conspicuous, that the virtue and blessings of thy Christ (all glosses being wiped away) might be fully displayed."

He then goes on to talk about how God knows what has gone on in the Church and how he (Calvin) wanted peace restored, but not at the expense of the truth of the gospel. He talks of his own experience in the Church with penances and works and how he had no peace even in that. His unwillingness at first to hear the truth about the Church corruption and his reverence for the Church were finally laid aside because God opened his eyes. His final comment to God being:

"And now, O Lord, what remains to a wretch like me, but instead of defense, earnestly to supplicate Thee not to judge according to its deserts that fearful abandonment of thy Word, from wihch, in thy wondrous goodness, Thou has at last delivered me"

He goes on to address Sadoleto:

"Now, Sadoleto, if you please....It will be strange if you hesitate which of the two you ought to prefer. For the safety of that man hangs by a thread whose defense turns wholly on this--that he has constantly adhered to the religion handed down to him from his forefathers. At this rate, Jews and Turks and Saracens would escape the judgment of God. Away, then, with this vain quibbling at a tribunal which will be erected not to approve the authority of man, but to condemn all flesh of vanity and falsehood, and vindicate the truth of God only."

There's a bit more to Calvin's letter, but I'm sure this is enough to read..lol. Please forgive the typos. I proofread it, but I imagine I missed some.

[JBaker45]

Obviously he was promoted in order to make it look like he had defeated Calvin ;-)
..as I told Tallen, according to the letters, Sadoleto was already Cardinal.
Oh well.. There goes that theory :P Lol

[JBaker45]

Wow.. Calvin obviously has the greater command of language.

I much prefer his writing style (and his argument) over Sadoleto's.


(At one point Sadoleto had quoted Paul about "vain philosophy.") But had you continued your quotation from Paul a little farther, any boy would easily have perceived that the charge which you bring against us is undoubtedly applicable to yourself. For Paul there interprets "vain philsophy" (Col. 2:8) to mean that which preys upon pious souls by means of the constitutions of men and the elements of this world: and by these you have ruined the Church."

On the "only" Church:

"But what arrogance, you will say, to boast that the Church is with you alone, and to deny it to all the world besides! We indeed, Sadoleto, deny not that those over which you preside are Churches of Christ, but we maintain that the Roman Pontiff, with his whole herd of pseudo-bishops, who have seized upon the pastor's office are ravening wolves, whose only study has hitherto been to scatter and trample upon the kingdom of Christ, filling it with ruin and devastation…
OUCH, these must have left a couple marks - Lol :)

[tking]

Yeah, even though Sadoleto was well-trained, it is evident that he had no idea what he'd be tangling with, and of course, he had no idea it would be Calvin who responded to him (Calvin was pretty reluctant at first). As is typical, Sadoleto's whole argument leaned toward the philosophical and the idea that he was dealing with ignorance that needed patting on the head (which is evident in all the Catholic apologists I've ever read), while Calvin was straight from scripture and history and expected his adversary to be up to the task.

What's interesting to me is from a personal viewpoint. I had tried to read Calvin's letters that are of a personal nature and found his style hard to take, and to be honest, I didn't like him. But to see him in this area...whoa...he definitely knew his stuff and was more than adept at laying the cards on the table.

[Tallen]

How's the reading going Terri?

[tking]

Well, I finished the letters. The rest of the booklet is from the Institutes about Justification by faith. I haven't read that part yet as I figured I'd get to it in the Calvin study we're doing. What I posted up there is pretty much the condensed version of the letters...lol. That part was only about 70 pages long...paperback-sized pages at that.

[Joe S]

This set just came out. It's a little pricey to me, but I know its nothing to you. Everybody knows farmers got plenty of money :bigO:

http://www.monergismbooks.com/calvininstitutes02.html

[tking]

This set just came out. It's a little pricey to me, but I know its nothing to you. Everybody knows farmers got plenty of money :bigO:

http://www.monergismbooks.com/calvininstitutes02.html

Uh huh...yeah...:crying: Actually, though, that's the best price I've seen on those so far. I think even on Alibris, the cheapest is $61 or something around there. Guess I'll stick with e-Sword's version for a while.