well, the cult might toss me afterall

[travelah]

Over on CARM, Ms D is at it again without any provocation whatsoever. I responded as noted below. Who knows, the authoritative woman in charge who opposes women in authority might actually boot me for responding to her provocation.



Trav also denies the inerrancy of Scripture, just for the record........

If you spoke the truth properly, you would state that Trav affirms the orthodox understanding that the scriptures are the infallible word of God. If you state otherwise you would make yourself a liar, just for the record.http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?p=1983123#post1983123

[JBaker45]

Over on CARM, Ms D is at it again without any provocation whatsoever. I responded as noted below. Who knows, the authoritative woman in charge who opposes women in authority might actually boot me for responding to her provocation.

http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?p=1983123#post1983123
Well Trav,

You could not have found a sorer open wound to choose to stick your pick into than Diane's stance against the creeping error of liberal feminism that is slowly consuming the churches.

(Good luck with that.)

[travelah]

Well Trav,

You could not have found a sorer open wound to choose to stick your pick into than Diane's stance against the creeping error of liberal feminism that is slowly consuming the churches.

(Good luck with that.)

Diane should learn to manage her open wounds. That is also no excuse for her conduct. I also resent the notion that you think I stuck a "pick" in her. She fired this salvo with absolutely no provocation on my part. My comment was to the opening post and entirely legitimate. I was not looking for any "fight" whatsoever.

If you or her took the time to ask, you would discover there are fewer participants on the board more strenuously opposed to liberalism and feminism in the modern church. Instead, I was smeared with a deceptive cult tactic. Luck is not what I rely on. The truth will do.

[Joe S]

Trav, don't tell me what you believe. I'll tell you what you believe. I don't care what you say, I'm sure you don't believe the Bible is the word of God. If you don't confess CSoF along with your older confession, you don't believe the bible. How many times have I got to tell you you don't believe the bible before you understand that you don't believe the bible? Stop using those big words, it doesn't change the fact you believe the bible is full of errors. The reason you don't agree with CARM is because you don't believe the bible.

And, btw, if you have issue with this post, its because you don't believe the bible. And that goes for all of you. :biglol:

[travelah]

Trav, don't tell me what you believe. I'll tell you what you believe. I don't care what you say, I'm sure you don't believe the Bible is the word of God. If you don't confess CSoF along with your older confession, you don't believe the bible. How many times have I got to tell you you don't believe the bible before you understand that you don't believe the bible? Stop using those big words, it doesn't change the fact you believe the bible is full of errors. The reason you don't agree with CARM is because you don't believe the bible.

And, btw, if you have issue with this post, its because you don't believe the bible. And that goes for all of you. :biglol:

Well, who cares what you think???? I'm a false teacher and you aint! so there:medium-smiley-114:

[Tallen]

I guess we are reduced to prayer in the matter, as it seems that reason does not work. I find D's tactics were solely for the purpose of poisoning the well and identifying you, once again, with something she does not understand well enough to even comment on. This is exactly the attitude I have been talking about in other threads on this board, where inerrancy is identified as the mark of orthodoxy and fellowship is based upon agreement on a particular understanding of inerrancy. I see this as a most divisive tool.

I am sorry that this happened to you Trav. :medium-smiley-010:

[travelah]

I guess we are reduced to prayer in the matter, as it seems that reason does not work. I find D's tactics were solely for the purpose of poisoning the well and identifying you, once again, with something she does not understand well enough to even comment on. This is exactly the attitude I have been talking about in other threads on this board, where inerrancy is identified as the mark of orthodoxy and fellowship is based upon agreement on a particular understanding of inerrancy. I see this as a most divisive tool.

I am sorry that this happened to you Trav. :medium-smiley-010:

Well, she knows she lacks the wit to sustain any discussion on this matter short of exercising her moderating wand.

[Maestroh]

Well, she knows she lacks the wit to sustain any discussion on this matter short of exercising her moderating wand.


So Trav - you deny inerrancy, too?


LOL!!

[travelah]

Oh and the 'maam continues in fine form .....



Look up the definition of feminist and Evangelical....you may not like the "brushing" but it is the definition of those ordaining females as elder/pastor in the church, they are evangelical feminist by definition....As for what we name a forum, that truly is not your decision. Should we decide to change the name of the forum, it will be to include others but so far, the groups are either "liberal" or "evangica feminist" referring to themselves as egalitarian, which most people don't recognize......



If you are here to create problems and attack Christian Evangelicals, I suggest you leave this forum.



I am not here for any such purpose, especially given I am a Christian Evangelical myself. I am here on this public board you set up questioning comments you have made against Christians who have not described or identified themselves in the manner you claim. It is a FACT that conservative Wesleyans and others who do not agree with you regarding the role of women in the church are not feminists or liberal by anybody's definition except your own or by those promoting their own agenda. Others on here have told you the same thing, that they are not feminists or liberal.



As for the name of the forum, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. The issue in discussion is your broad inclusion of conservative Christians in a category name considered offensive and insulting to most such Christians. To date your defense is to refer one to a dictionary rather than an examiniation of doctrine. If your aggressive comments had been confined to those who truly fit the definition of Evangelical Feminists (and that too is subject to broad latitude) I do not think there would be any serious issue at all. However, you have lumped several mainstream and orthodox groups into the same bucket as the true evangelical feminists who should rightly be considered apostate.



Now, for the third time, are you posting as a participant or as a moderator in this discussion. Your own rules forbid me from challenging you in a moderator position and I do not wish to do so. However, if you are posting as a participant I am more than game to tackle your fallacies and faulty arguments head on.

I am guessing her eyes will glaze and she will swing her axe. I am sorry, but she is simply an embaressment to the body of Christ.

[travelah]

swing number 1.



And for the last time, you have no clue what you are talking about. "Evangelical feminists" on this forum referring to themselves as "egalitarian" or those claiming to be their scholars, referring to themselves as "evangelical feminists" do not consider themselves "apostate" and you have insulted them beyond even CARM's position. I suggest you do some reading and catch up.

http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj5h.pdf

The terms were defined and will remain for now, I will trust Wayne Gruden's definitions as a complimentarian and those claiming to be "evangelical feminists" defitions and not your definition.

As for who is or is not conservative, that would depend on the issues involved.

I am entitled to my personal opinion, which has been stated and definitions given.

As for the title of the forum, again, that is not up to you to decide, the admins will determine what name is given to a forum.

Do you actually read posts before you reply to them. I made it clear I do not care one way or the other what you call the board. You are certainly entitled to give your opinions. Nobody is suggesting otherwise although you should certainly not be surprised when your stated opinions are challenged. As for whether I am ignorant of egalitarian and complementarian issues, I suggest I am well versed enough in the matter to instruct you properly. Gruden's opinion's are usually well thought out and I have no desire to challenge him. However it is also noted that the world of hierarchies and equality is considerably more complex than your simplistic black and white view. There are many areas in between with some suggesting complementarian views that place hierarchies alongside rather than in a primacy role. Gordon Fee (gasp, a conservative Pentecostal) is one such person who has explored this area.

The point in all this is you have reacted in a kneejerk fashion and branded all those who disagree with your outlook as liberal and feminist. It is a fundamentally incorrect position to take. As for whether I have offended anybody by deeming certain religious groups as apostate, I recommend you take a look at the Religions section. CARM has deemed several religious groups as such or worse. I am sure there are individuals in those groups who are offended at your public stance. The key is to focus on the group and it's doctrines rather than the individual.

[Tallen]

Trav, I have to say I am very ignorant of this topic. I will hope that you can educate me some, so I can get the terms and positions in my thick head.

That stated, and coming at this from a completely ignorant position, it does seem you have been painted a certain color by D without her considering your posts. You state one thing and she turns around and claims just the opposite about what you just claimed. I think this is her MO, when someone disagrees with her she resorts to ad hominem to make her position seem "orthodox". You certainly have made your point clear to me, as a casual reader ignorant within this topic, and it seems that she gets offended if anyone challenges the "CARM position".

I pray her heart will soften and that she will be more receptive of certain nuances and positions that may vary from hers and yet be within the orthodoxy of the faithful in Christ.

Blessings.

[travelah]

Trav, I have to say I am very ignorant of this topic. I will hope that you can educate me some, so I can get the terms and positions in my thick head.

That stated, and coming at this from a completely ignorant position, it does seem you have been painted a certain color by D without her considering your posts. You state one thing and she turns around and claims just the opposite about what you just claimed. I think this is her MO, when someone disagrees with her she resorts to ad hominem to make her position seem "orthodox". You certainly have made your point clear to me, as a casual reader ignorant within this topic, and it seems that she gets offended if anyone challenges the "CARM position".

I pray her heart will soften and that she will be more receptive of certain nuances and positions that may vary from hers and yet be within the orthodoxy of the faithful in Christ.

Blessings.

Ted, as for my position, I am a complimentarian and do not approve of women in the role of Pastor. I recognize this places me at odds with some in the Wesleyan ranks but I believe I am on firmer scriptural ground than my brethren in this matter. A complimentarian subscribes to a patriarchal hierarchy although acknowledging complimentary roles for both genders. An egalitarian rejects hierarchies and demands an equality of the genders with women afforded the right to pastor congregations and be an equal within the presbytery. Now, most Wesleyans (thinking of non-UMC here) are not egalitarian in that they still subscribe to a modified hierarchy yet I am of the opinion that they will themselves be pulled in a further wrong direction if conservative voices do not hold sway.

In any event, I hope that helps some. I'll avoid posting any more from the CARM discussion because it's only littering the board and to be truthful I was venting somewhat.

Blessings in Christ

trav

[Joe S]

"Evangelical feminists" on this forum referring to themselves as "egalitarian" or those claiming to be their scholars, referring to themselves as "evangelical feminists" do not consider themselves "apostate" and you have insulted them beyond even CARM's position

Are there apostate sects who do consider themselves "apostate"? I'm sure thats not what she meant to say. Diane needs some rest. :pray:

[JBaker45]

Are there apostate sects who do consider themselves "apostate"? I'm sure thats not what she meant to say. Diane needs some rest. :pray:
Hey.. She's only human like you and me.

(And that's me.. Mr. "Diane apologist" - Lol)

[travelah]

Are there apostate sects who do consider themselves "apostate"? I'm sure thats not what she meant to say. Diane needs some rest. :pray:

I do not think she understood what I stated with regard to apostate groups. However, rather than rest I would recommend somebody actually sit her down and go over the basics of Christian apolgetics. She is ignorant of too many theological issues that interfere not only with her ability to engage the discussions in a fruitful manner but also destroys her credibility as an impartial participant. I have maintained that she cannot fairly particpate in a discussion and also moderate that same discussion. Some people can but she from my experience cannot. However, CARM is not concerned with the credibilty of it's administration or at least that of it's senior admins in my opinion.

I'll stop with that and say no more.